Niqabs and Burqas?? Was Boris right??

Well Boris with his usual bumbling has opened up a debate by comparing women in Niqabs and Burqas to letter boxes and bank robbers.

Well to start with it was rude and offensive. But I don’t mind offense.

Was it Islamophobic??


Personally I find the wearing of such garments completely offensive. They are garments that shriek to me of male domineering misogyny from cultures long ago and I don’t think they have any place in a civilised country. They offend my sensibilities. When I interact with someone I interact with their face. The whole of the human face is expressive. Not to have that contact seems wrong. I can understand why people find it threatening.

I find it absolutely wrong for men to be walking around in comfortable, cool Western clothes while women are wearing such cumbersome and unpleasantly claustrophobic attire. Mind you, I find some of the costumes some men wear utterly unsuited for the British climate and almost as bad.

A number of countries have gone so far as to ban these niqabs and burqas as not being compatible with society. I would agree that they are not compatible with a modern society based on equality.

But I wouldn’t ban them. I would oppose any laws that dictated what someone should or should not wear. However, I do think that if a person is working with children or the public, where face to face is so important, these, like crash-hats, balaclavas, masks or any other facial covering, should not be worn.

These garments are not even Islamic. There is no mention of them in the Koran. They date back to days well before. So why are some Muslim women insisting on wearing them?

Surely Muslim women in Britain should exercise their right to freedom and show unity with their sisters in those countries where these things are compulsory?

What do you think?

Was Bumbling Boris right to be so rude?

23 thoughts on “Niqabs and Burqas?? Was Boris right??

    1. Well I can see the reason why I don’t think it’s Islamophobic. They aren’t actually Islamic. But I’m interested in hearing what you think.

  1. I too dislike to see women cajoled into wearing these. However, like yourself I don’t think we should ban them. Women who don’t wear them and challenge the male powers over them need our support and hopefully they will change this antiquated practice.

    1. You’re wrong. They don’t need any support. They have equal rights, but if they chose to only follow Sharia Law, which too many of them do, then they don’t have equal rights. If you want to see these women empowered then you will have to ban the wearing of them in public.

      1. But if they choose to do so then that, by definition, is their choice. If women want to wear the burqa then so be it. In countries where the law mandates them wearing it they have no choice and this is unequivocally wrong. Thankfully many women have started opposing this and are fighting hard – a battle largely ignored by ‘progressives’ in Europe. You can’t defend the values of freedom of expression, freedom of thought and freedom of association by bans and censorship.

      2. Isobel – shouldn’t the Muslim women who exert their right not to wear these garments be given support?? They need support to resist the pressure on them to wear that stuff. The Koran does not require them. They are not actually Islamic. They are pre-Islamic. Having equal rights is having the right to refuse.
        Banning them doesn’t empower those women does it?

      3. Hena – I find that very well put. If they choose to wear them, despite my offense, then fair enough. If they are forced to wear them then we should be making a hell of a fuss. It’s an invasion of human rights. I would agree that banning them would not empower those women.
        Those women who are standing up for their rights in those countries need all our support.

      4. henacynflin: Firstly we don’t live in a country where such prohibitions of choice exist, so let’s not waste our time discussing that. Let’s get to the point of that which happens here.
        You’re right if they want to wear it – then it is their choice! No argument with that, but I don’t quite see where your logic prevails there. We are talking about the emancipation of women’s rights relevant to the Islamic practice and enforced doctrine of wearing such garments. If we want to see proper equality for women as per how we westerners communicate between ourselves and where they are not forced to wear this stuff, then we have no choice but to ban the wearing of them in public.

        We can actually very easily determine that we can defend such values. And it depends upon the values we put upon these values. Everything has limitations and if we behave without value limitation we end up with what we’ve got – women being downtrodden and forced into submissiveness. That’s not the sort of freedom of expression, thought or association that I wish to see. We have to make a decision and not be dictated to by said ‘progressives’.

      5. Isobel – that sounds a bit contradictory to me.
        If they want to they have the right but you would ban it anyway?
        I’m tempted to ban them too on many grounds but that opens up a whole other can of worms. We have freedom to wear what we like (within certain limitations) and I wouldn’t want to restrict that. Once you go down that route where does it end? Police going on beaches telling women to undress because they are wearing burkinis? People being arrested? Fines imprisonment? Do we ban balaclavas and hoodies?
        I’m loathe to go down that route.
        I certainly think we should act if people are being forced.

      6. Opher, we really aren’t in any position to be arguing with the content of the Koran, so why bother. We all know that there is no such order to wear this stuff in the Koran. That isn’t the point. The point is that it has become entrenched within the Islamic cultural spectrum, just as much as Fish ‘n chips on a Friday.
        What you suggest as a method of dealing with it is a hopeless piecemeal approach – a one-to-one. Forget it, there’s several million of them already so how are you going to cope with that offering support aspect? There’s only one way, the best and most simple – an outright banning of wearing this stuff in public.
        What they do in their own home is their business.
        Then we quickly move on to the vast problem of the amount of women being battered in their homes by psychotic males all in the name of Islam, etc., etc.
        There’s really no end to the vast scale of anti-social problems this entire subject drags with it.
        Which probably goes some way to explaining why all these “Diversity Councillors” that are now found in all our county councils in ever increasing numbers, and all being paid around £100,000 per year, by the way, are required in the first place.
        If Diversity is going quite as well as we have been told it is, why do we even need all these people. It’s quite evident it’s all going tits-up.

      7. Opher, you have to work out what that choice is.
        I couldn’t care less if a Muslim woman wants to wear it. It’s actually not about her wants, it’s about society in general. On one hand you don’t want to be dealing with people wearing this, but on the other collapse under the strain of their rights to wear it. Why complain or make cause for questioning if you can’t make any decision yourself. There’s no point you talking with others then is there? Or do you really just want the decision made for you? Easy done. BANNED!

      8. Isobel, one once aspect you are certainly correct “it is about society in general”. I want to support the idea of an open and liberal society which does not ban expression or compel behaviour on its citizens. If we start forcing people to dress more immodestly we are on a very slipperly slope. Bans do not help womens’ free expression. The correct target of our anger is those who insist women dress in a certain way. It is not to start to copy this type of controlling behaviour in our society.

    2. Yes Hena – I hope so too. I find it archaic misogyny. But I guess they have to work that out for themselves. It certainly isn’t Islamic.

      1. Hena – I think the Niqab and Burqa are cultural rather than religious. Personally I’d like to see them be locked away in history. I think they are oppressive.

      2. Hena, I’m not too sure you actually know what you want. Reading through your commentary, I can make the following assumptions.
        Post 1.
        1. You dislike to see women wearing them
        2. You don’t think they should ban them
        3. Women who don’t wear them and challenge need our support
        4. Hope fully they will change this antiquated practice.

        Post 2,
        1. If they chose to wear them, it’s their choice
        2. Women have started to oppose wearing them – possibly in Europe?
        3. You can’t defend the values of freedom of expression, freedom of thought and freedom of association by bans and censorship.

        Post 3.
        I want to support the idea of an open and liberal society which does not ban expression or compel behaviour on its citizens. If we start forcing people to dress more immodestly we are on a very slipperly slope. Bans do not help womens’ free expression. The correct target of our anger is those who insist women dress in a certain way. It is not to start to copy this type of controlling behaviour in our society.

        Aren’t you asking rather a lot of people? That being other people, the other 95% of the 60 million of us? Have we all got to change our attitudes because as you express the following:
        1) We might dislike or like seeing them wearing them.
        2. We could ban them or we don’t ban them.
        3) We need to support people about them wearing or not wearing them.
        4) Where on this earth has anybody ever changed this antiquated practice? Please Hena, do lead us to that country. Did you actually think before you said that?
        5) Is there a choice to wear them? I thought you just said people needed support with wearing or not wearing. Please make your mind up.
        6) Apparently women have started to oppose wearing them in Europe, but Progressives have ignored this. So let us also help them oppose the wearing of them and let us not ignore this.
        7) Your claims of defence of values of freedom of expression and association by bans and censorship are therefore nul and void if you chose not to ban or censor. So why make relationship? It’s not about what you don’t do, it’s about what you do do.
        I’d like to know how freedom of thought could be banned or censored. Please explain how this could ever be possible.

        Hena, you make claim to a situation of forcing people to dress “more immodestly”!
        Seriously Hena, there’s nothing immodest by letting other people see one’s face. That’s all we’re asking. We’re not asking them to turn out looking like a saucy postcard are we? Good heavens, your profound liberalism has almost strangled your powers of connected relation to normality.
        We don’t want or need a fully fledged Islamic society. Or do you? Maybe that’s the case? Maybe you’re entirely happy with all that goes with that.
        I’d like to know how you can ever attempt to target those who insist women dress in this manner. You know what you’re doing here? You are replicating the Nazis who instructed children to report on their parents for listening to British radio or saying nasty things about Hitler. You’re asking these women to report on their own husbands who are forcing them to wear these garments. How else would we get to find out who they are if that did nor happen?
        It’s got nothing to do with copying any such controlling behaviour as you make claim on 3. above. Your logic as expressed here is all over the place.

        Yourself and Opher really need to think about this a whole lot better.

      3. For heavens sake Isobel – do try to keep things in proportion. The 5% Muslims are not going to ever set up a Muslim state here. That antiquated dress code is fading out. Most Muslims are opposed to it and a tiny number wear them. It will die the death. It just needs sensitive encouragement not draconian outrage.
        What Hena says is 100% right.

  2. Opher, you state above that “Hena – that was very well and succinctly put. I’m with you all the way.”
    Are you really?
    Above this post, I dissected in clear and simple terms what Hena has actually said within her three main posts.
    I see a great deal of contradiction, implausibility and impossibility.
    How does one ban or censor freedom of thought? LOL

    1. One doesn’t ban or censor freedom of thought. One provides a climate in which thoughts can change. One encourages rightful change. Bans create pushback.
      The recent hardening of Islamic practice is a result of what has been happening in Arab countries.
      I recently saw a documentary about Islamabad University in Pakistan in the 1970s. All the students without exception were in western clothes listening to Western music with no prayers to be seen. Now they are all in traditional medieval garb and praying. They showed the documentary to the present students and they were shocked. It was an eye-opener. My own Muslim friends were all secular in the 60s and 70s. There was no fuss. It’ll settle again once we stop bombing and creating hatred to fuel the terrorists and hard-liners.

    2. Therefore as it’s only a tiny number – as per your claim – why are you in full agreement with someone who thinks we should teeter very carefully on eggshells so as not to upset their sensibilities?
      What Hena says isn’t close to being 100% right.
      She said “You can’t defend the values of freedom of expression, freedom of thought and freedom of association by bans and censorship.”
      That’s the height of nonsense. She’s a virtue signaller.

      Denmark banned the wearing of the Burqa and Niqad veil, and passed law on 31 May 2018. “Incompatible with Danish values”.
      We can quite easily do the same.

      What will beat them to the post is the Health & Safety people.
      They’re gunning for them as they believe these covering the feet length gowns are very dangerous on escalators and could easily be trapped.
      I saw that once in Dubai and it was torn off in a blink. The commotion was ever so funny. My husband was laughing so much his glasses fell off and were damaged.

      One final thing – you say “The 5% Muslims are not going to ever set up a Muslim state here.”
      Well they have around 3,500 Mosques in UK already. Their schools, their Islamic study colleges and conference centres. Their Islamic Law courts are in full swing and not least some entire areas completely domiciled by them.
      Seems to me that they’re got a right good foothold already.
      If that doesn’t indicate the “not ever” for you, well what will?

      1. Isobel – Let me be quite clear. I find Islam particularly repulsive. I am an antitheist who believes all religion is crap. It is man-made and all about power and wealth. We’d be better off without any of it. I am pleased that it is hopefully dying out. Islam is probably, at this moment in time, the worst. It’s brainwashing of children, intolerance, obnoxious teachings, archaic dress codes and practices are repulsive.
        I am extremely concerned with the spread of mosques, madrassas, radicalisation, burkas and niqabs and brainwashing.
        Where we differ is this:
        I do not think that you solve this by banning burkas
        I do not believe that denying the right to wear what you like is the way forward
        I think religion, no matter how obnoxious, should be a personal choice

        I think you solve the problem by:
        a. Stopping the bombing and wars
        b. Police mosques and lock up those spreading hate and radicalisation
        c. Shut down madrassas and make it illegal to brainwash kids (applies to other religious brainwashing too – Jews, Christians, Hindus etc)
        d. Shut down all religious schools and integrate kids
        e. Work at strategies to integrate and secularise (particularly language skills)
        f. Use health and safety to ensure these ridiculous garments are not allowed in schools, hospitals or in places where communication with the public is required

        In my view if you take away the things causing hatred and isolation you solve the problem. Most Muslims want to integrate and most used to be secular. We need to get back to that.
        I’d like to see it all die off.

      2. Yes, Opher, we all have like to sees and wishes for this and that. But can you put that ever increasingly endlessly infinitum list back into your head for future reference and Can we get to the blasted point!
        First point is obviously the fact that many more Muslims are piling in from countries that are NOT being bombed.
        You like to see it all die off, you say. Yes indeed agreed.
        However, concerning the now, I really don’t think it sends a very positive communication message to OUR children and I have witnessed instances where children have been visibly frightened by the sight of these morons parading themselves in groups down the street like a flock of Crows and Ravens. And to think that in some regions they stopped the visitation of Clowns into hospitals because some children were frightened of them and crying.
        Meanwhile, as we sit here creeping around quietly, not wishing to say the slightest thing that could offend and giving each other meek yet knowing smiles, how many more mosques did they open in UK last year? And how many more will have opened by year end 2018?
        Did you say something about something dying off? I didn’t quite catch that …

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