The Clash – Should I stay or should I go? – European exit?

Posted on by Opher

Well it just came to me that this should be the song that is associated with the whole question of leaving or staying in the European union

The Clash – Should I stay or should I go

Should I stay or should I go now? (Yo! ¿Me frío o lo soplo?)
Should I stay or should I go now? (Yo! ¿Me frío o lo soplo?)
If I go there will be trouble (Si me voy, va a haber peligro)
And if I stay it will be double (Si me quedo, es doble)
So you gotta let me know (Pero que tienes que decir)
Should I cool it or should I blow? (¿Me frío o lo soplo?)
Should I stay or should I go now? (¿Me frío o lo soplo?)
If I go there will be trouble (Si me voy, va a haber peligro)
And if I stay there will be double (Si me quedo, es doble)
So you gotta let me know (Pero que tienes que decir)
Should I stay or should I go

It’s always shades of grey.

This whole thing should never have arisen in the first place. It was David Cameron playing politics and trying to buy off the right-wingers in his party by offering them this referendum. He’s put the whole country in a mess because of his party politics. Just weakness.

I am in favour of staying. Not because I love the European bureaucracy but despite that.

My reasons are:

  • European collaboration on terrorism
  • A bigger voice on the world stage
  • A greater union – movement towards global government
  • Better economic opportunity
  • No years of wrangling over trade agreements
  • No destabilisation
  • No firms fleeing to set up headquarters in Europe
  • No more wars in Europe
  • We’re safer and better off in
  • Good European laws on Human Rights and workers rights.

I think we’re better off in. I also think that we do not know the facts. It’s all emotional guesswork. I don’t give a knack about sovereignty. I’d prefer to be under European law than what the Tories are doing. The Queen, the establishment, parliament – you can stuff it all.

When I look at the people supporting Brexit they are a rabid bunch of extreme chancers and opportunists. People like Boris who want to use this as an opportunity to become Prime Minister. He doesn’t really believe a word he’s saying. He did an about turn.

No. It’s in for me.

What do you think?

18 thoughts on “The Clash – Should I stay or should I go? – European exit?”

  1. I think that there are two things that are really irking me about the debate in general:

    1. Cheap use of the word scaremongering; I don’t think it is right to label anything and everything that would be a negative consequence of staying or going as “scaremongering” – the debate should be balanced. Every rational person knows you should weigh up the pros and cons of both sides, so why do half the population and the media bark scaremongering or project fear when the con (as in negative, not conservative) side of the debate is raised.
    2. Whilst I largely agree that people “don’t have the facts” I also think that the responsibility of the individual is HUGELY overlooked. People shouldn’t expect to be fed the facts – plus the word fact in itself is misleading because the decision should be on the future; so prediction is more apt. If a person has read the treasury report, read all the news, done a little personal reading and still feels they don’t have enough information then that is fair.

    On balance, it is wrong to leave the European Union. I take what you are saying that it might be more emphatic of Cameron to keep the party together without a referendum; but Labour will come off worst in this one. People will remember Cameron keeping us in Europe and putting the issue to bed, and Corbyn’s tepid show of support

    1. I agree with your analysis. I hope the biggest loser is Boris. He’s jumped into that camp for political reasons and it shows. Personal ambition is not a good reason to put the whole country in jeopardy.
      Corbyn’s tepid support reflects his dislike of the bureaucratic nature of the union. I share that. The union needs a major overhaul and an end to the gravy train and pettiness. It needs to be more efficient, faster and with a better decision making mechanism.
      Cameron should never have put us in this situation. He did it purely to appease his Eurosceptic wing and keep them on board through the election. He did not want the public to see how split they were. Internal party politics is not, in my opinion, a good basis to put our futures at stake.
      Europe is not functioning well enough but I believe that it is the way forward. Britain alone would be the tiny country we are – small, weak and ineffective. In we can, hopefully, influence.
      Thanks for contributing Joseph.

      1. Yes in my mind Boris has just tumbled and tumbled in my expectations, and honestly I don’t think he has done himself a service. Using phrases like “conspiracy” and “delusional” to describe the EU parliament is a little bit wild and not something I think he should be doing.

        On Corbyn whilst I largely agree, he does not make people want to stay and that is a big problem when it is the view you support.

        Cameron, well everything seems to slip off Cameron – that man can get away with anything!

        But yes, I am confident in the pubic and I think that we will stay in

      2. There comes a time when things will stick. The Teflon will turn to Velcro.
        I agree with you – I believe the public will vote to stay in.

  2. What I resent is the pressure being put on the public to say “YES”, as in Obama coming here trying to tell us vote Yes, how dare he, it has absolutely nothing to do with a useless President who now on his way out is trying to make himself look good.

    1. I think there is such a lot of hype and emotion on all sides it is difficult to pick out the facts. Nobody can see into the future. It’s guesswork.

  3. Borders/Fishermen’s Trade/end of EU Human Rights crap/£300 million a day membership – What precisely are we getting for it and why do we want to be in it fully we still have the £. Finally if I had any doubts that Obama coming over here and threatening, and he did threaten, that USA would only trade with us after all the others. For Dave that useless Obama came here and threatened the jobs of the British working man and that you as a Socialist should be so annoyed at Opher. I AM OUT. I think it will be extremely close and if the OUT don’t push and push it may, just may go to Yes and keep Dave In, think of that one.

    1. Dave Cameron, George Osborn or Boris the buffoon – not much difference as far as I’m concerned.
      Thanks for that Anna – all grist to the mill.

  4. The OUT brigade gives me the creeps. People who want to build a wall round Britain are the last people I’d trust to negotiate new trade agreements. Like you, a little reluctantly, I’m IN.

    1. Some of those politicians wanting out are pretty scary. They come from an extreme part of the Tory Party, plus a few chancers. I think they’ll scare people off. Gove, Davies, Grayling, Farage and Goldsmith are hardly pleasant, rational individuals.
      I can’t imagine Boris being taken seriously in America, China or India. Imagine trying to sort out all those agreements with the EU, Canada, NZ, S. America, Africa, Oz and the others all at the same time. Quite a task. I can’t see we’d come out well.
      The chaos would cause mayhem. The bankers would head for Berlin. The multi-nations would too. Where would we get our money from? We don’t produce much any more. If we lost our role as the centre and gateway to Europe we’d be jiggered.
      I agree with you Dave.

      2. According to the Spectator these are the Tory stats:
        So far, 17 members of the Cabinet—or 78 per cent—have said they want Britain to stay in Europe, whilst five—or 22 per cent—want out

        It’s a mixed bag amongst Tory Ministers, too, with 45—or 71 per cent—opting ‘In’, 11—or 17 per cent—for ‘Out’ and 7 MPs yet to say.

        And there are 100 – or 41 per cent – of MPs on the backbenches who are backing the Prime Minister, 116, or 48 per cent of MPs who want ‘Out’ and 29 backbench Conservative MPs who are yet to say for certain which way they intend to vote.

        Very few Labour – Hoey, Stringer, Hopkin and Mills

        I think that Liam Fox, Bernard Jenkin and Robert Redwood are sufficient for me to say whatever it is I want to be in the other camp. I find them obnoxious.
        Most people who know what’s going on – in all camps – business, CBI, all political parties, foreign leaders, farmers – want us in.

        I don’t like the bureaucracy in Europe. I think it can be speeded up and made much more effective. But I like the workers laws and most of the human rights (based on lot on the British input anyway) and the collaboration on terrorism and environment. It’s imperfect but in my opinion preferable.
        The sooner we get world government the better.

        In the end money talks. The consensus from the experts is that we will be far better off in. That’s what will win the vote. I don’t even think it will be close.

        I think it could turn into a decade of chaos and disaster if we leave. Even the thought of it is upsetting the markets and making firms think of moving.

        What do you think Dave?

  5. Absolutely! The Out campaign sounds flaky and on the back foot after the number and weight of endorsements for In. You hear a lot of ordinary people talking Out but it’s a simpler case to put. The silent majority probably can’t be bothered to talk about it. Something weird would need to happen for Out to become a bandwagon – let’s hope it doesn’t!

    1. Well that was uncanny. I was just taking a break from writing and having a look through our exchanges on Europe and you pop up with a comment. That’s obviously some kind of weird psychic connection (or else it’s merely coincidence). Quite spooky.
      I agree. All the weight of evidence and opposition rolling in with the same consistent message has knocked the stuffing out of the out campaign. They can call one political leader a lame duck, others with vested interests, and such but when it begins to stack up so solidly it is hard to refute. They sound lame and flustered. There’s no real substance to what they are saying. It’s all hot air and emotion.
      Personally I don’t think there is a magic wand to deal with immigration and terrorism. It’s time Europe got together and sorted out a coherent policy. It might be a good idea for them to deal with the underlying causes – the war in Syria, Libya and Sudan – then Nigeria and the Palestine problem. The reason for Boko Haram, ISIS, Taliban and a Qaeda. They are so slow.
      I’d like to see us in Europe sorting out a coherent policy for all that rather than on the periphery helpless to do anything. Going on our own won’t make the borders less porous. I like free movement.
      Sovereignty is what it is all about for a minority of people. They are prepared to sacrifice a lot in order to get it. I don’t give a knack for it myself – the bloody royalty and nationalism, patriotism and the establishment. I’d do away with countries completely and get the world running properly.
      But seemingly, according to one blogger, I am crazy.
      Perhaps I am.

      1. The Out campaign is, as you say, essentially emotional and backward-looking. When it’s rejected – hope it’s not tempting fate to say When not and not If – perhaps we’ll throw ourselves into reforming it to achieve the bigger goals you mention. We have to make supra-national governance work because modern problems are international, way beyond the nation-state to solve. The Outers are mostly libertarian nutters who don’t believe in democratic governance at all …

      2. It desperately needs reforming – too much gravy and not enough meat. They need to move to a more effective system that is speedier and more far-reaching in my opinion.
        What was all that stuff Boris was on about that the US would never go for a coalition? The US is a coalition. It is a whole continent. Each State is the equivalent of an autonomous country. It’s strength has come from uniting them. If they had all remained individual countries it would never have achieved its position of power.
        Blimey Dave – you’re having a sunday afternoon rummage here. What’s your impression of the two books I’m working on. Do they have legs?

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