Religion and indoctrination
I was struck by the first case of a British woman being tried for taking her young son to Iraq to join ISIS. Her claim was that she had to live under Sharia law or she would be doomed to hell.
I felt sorry for the sad indoctrinated lady. She had been brought up to believe that all who thought differently to her were doomed to be tortured in the fires of hell forever.
It is notions like this that led to the European conquests of America, Australia, South America and the rest of the world. Insane religious zealots set out to bring their faith to the ignorant savages and thus save their souls. In the process they did, incidentally, steal their lands, torture, and rape, plunder their valuables, enslave and practice genocide upon them – all in the name of religion. I am sure that all the millions of natives who suffered these depravities (even to agonised death) were eternally grateful. Their eternal souls rest in the ecstasy of heaven instead of suffering endless torment and torture while their free relatives were, due to their ignorance or wrong beliefs, endlessly damned.
It is only when we stand back and view the savagery and stupidity of these actions that we can see the foolishness of religion for what it is – pure tribalism and power unleashed. It certainly sets a lot of bells ringing in my head:
If there was a god who behaved in this psychotic manner (punishing good people by torturing them for eternity for believing in the wrong religion or no religion) then one would have to say that this god was sadistic.
The Christians, Hindus, Jews and Muslims all assert the same thing: if you do not believe in my god and follow my religion you are doomed. Some even go so far as to declare that all non-believers should be tortured and killed.
This is clearly tribal insanity of the most primitive and savage nature.
So how are these primitive beliefs perpetuated?
They come to us from the dark ages of the dawn of civilisation when laws were arbitrary, life was cheap, women were subjugated and violence an everyday occurrence. Religion provided some semblance of law and morality.
We’ve moved on. Civilisation has arrived. We have better laws and more philosophically and psychologically based morality. We do not have the same need for superstition.
Yet religion persists.
The reason is quite clear – it persists because young children are indoctrinated and the seeds are implanted deep into their psyche. Once there they are there for good. The seeds implanted into the developing minds of our children are so deeply imprinted that there can be no escape. They are damaged for good.
We see this so clearly in the likes of the Rock ‘n’ Roll rebels such as Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis with their lives alternating between the extremes of wildness and religious fervour. The child indoctrination creates those extremes of behaviour.
It is sad to witness.
Yet the State aids and abets this abuse of our children. Parents are encouraged to enter into religious ceremonies – baptisms, marriage and worship. The media put out their programmes of religious worship as if this is what we all should be doing.
Worst of all schools in Britain have, by law, to teach religion to our children with daily services of worship to some supernatural creature who supposedly sees every thought and deed. We inculcate magic and superstition into our children. It is a wonder that it does not do even more damage to those young minds.
Then the religions have their input. They hold their services and are eager to get their hands on the young. They have their pomp, pageantry and magnificent buildings to create the fairy tale – so it must be true.
All the religions have their fanaticism, promote their intolerance and hatred and terrify with their stories of everlasting agonies to come. It must be a terrifying experience for children to hear these sorts of superstitions. It would implant itself deep into the psyche.
Yet all around the world the evangelists, Jesuits, Rabbis and Imams feed their noxious poison into the minds of our babes and we allow them to do it. Just imagine if we had similar institutions set up by the fascists, communists, republicans, nationalists, democrats, socialists or tories? If political groups were vying with each other to plant their evil thoughts into those open minds?
There is no difference.
Indoctrinating children is child abuse. It is far-reaching and has a detrimental effect for life.
The religious schools should be shut, religion taken out of schools, all religious education halted with the closure of Sunday Schools and all other religious ‘education’ facilities – the worst probably being the Muslim Madrassas.
Religion should come with a health warning and be treated in the same way as alcohol and tobacco – not for distribution to minors – except that it is even more dangerous.
Going back to that poor twenty six year old mother who was so abused as a child that she believed that taking her young son to a war zone was preferable to living in a civilised country; that she had to live under sharia law in order to be saved from hell; that only Islam had the right answers and all unbelievers were kuffars; that it was better to be martyred than to live; that murdering kuffars was demanded by her god; that there was a god and he demanded she lived her life according to the medieval writings of some semi-civilised culture from the dark ages.
What a sad, abused lady.
It is time that a civilised world put a stop to this indoctrination and abuse. There is no room for child abuse of this nature and scale. It is simply horrendous.
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“All the religions have their fanaticism, promote their intolerance and hatred and terrify with their stories of everlasting agonies to come.” – definitely is a wide generalization.
As for the Jewish People: We don’t “feed our noxious poison into the minds” of anybody. The jewish religion is an unique example for non-proselytizing.
That is true! The Jewish people have not been out on the evangelical trail. That is highly commendable.
However I was just watching a programme about a Jewish sect who were setting up private schools in London so that they could educate their own children. The curriculum was 90% Torah and other Jewish teaching. They did a little Maths and a little English and nothing else. A good example of indoctrination in operation, I believe.
My contention is that while most people in any religion are benign and tolerant – there are xtremes who are not.
As for sects: point taken. But mind you: Generalization is just as dangerous as indoctrination.
Intransient generalisation is certainly dangerous. Personally I don’t think it is as bad as indoctrination.
But I take your point Matt – I will try not to generalise. It is just difficult when you are trying to write succinctly.
The difference between a sect and a religion? Surely merely one of number?
Am not sure early Christianity had some of the ideology that came when the religion became institutionalised and imperialistic through Roman and then later colonial attitudes. I fear how religion can be used to still manipulate people. I think those behind ISIS are very clever and use the religion to gain young foot soldiers. Interesting article in the Guardian about how youngsters from Brighton went off to Syria to fight.
HI Georgina – I’ll check out that article – thanks.
Wow, you really have a problem with anyone who believes in whatever God it is, to me there is one God and one God only.
I don’t care if they are Jewish/Buddhist/Baptist/Methodist/Protestant/Muslim/ Catholic (as you know very well I am lapse Catholic). I know you are an atheist as is my eldest Son regrettably, but that’s Jonathan’s choice – please Opher don’t keep on about it.
No. I’m obviously not explaining myself very well. I don’t have any problem with people believing in god. That’s fine with me. People can believe in whatever god or gods they choose and I don’t have a problem. I quite like a discussion about whether there is a god or not. If there is or isn’t is not of great importance to me. What I am very irate about is two things – children being indoctrinated and brainwashed and religion being used for power, hatred and control.
I’ll try not to keep going on about it.
To be honest with you Opher, and you know that I am – it comes over to me that you have this intense hatred for God and all Religions/Faiths/Beliefs. I know where you are going with “Children being brainwashed etc” I was Catholic and I know only too well all of that shit but you cannot blame God, God did not does not indoctrinate/brainwash man does just as man starts War not God. I told Jonathan I had mentioned him being an atheist to you today and we had a discussion, one of the things he said to me was that at the end he knows he will be judged by God.
You don’t have to answer this as it may come over to you as too personal, but do you tell your Grandchildren all your beliefs, is that not indoctrinating.
I don’t have a hatred of gods or gods. I just think they come out of peoples’ minds. That only my belief. I don’t blame god. I just don’t think he exists. I’m happy if other people do.
Sounds like Jonathan isn’t an atheist after all.
No. I’m careful not to indoctrinate my children or grandchildren. I try to teach them to evaluate and think and not to accept anything they are told. To work it out for themselves. That’s hard. If I did set out to do that it would be indoctrination.
But I accept that our children swim in the climate we create for them so they’ll pick up what we think. I want them free to make up their own minds.
My Rebbe explains it quite good: Faith is different than beliefs …
I like him. He seems kind and wise. That’s good. So now I know I have no faith or beliefs.
I gave up my faith in their being a central intelligence to the cosmos. I used to do meditation and want the Zen thing of sartori. I wanted to go up to Jack’s mountain top and seek perfection. I no longer feel the need.
It matters little to me. I do not believe in gods, central intelligences or any afterlife. If it turns out there is then that is a bonus.
I merely get angry when religion is used for hatred and power and children are indoctrinated.
The kindest, happiest person I have met was a Thai monk by the name of Vorosak Candamitto. e married us.
Religious people, like your rebbi, can be extremely wise and tolerant. That’s good.
So there is no point in generalising or milking single cases.
It’s hard to be concise on a blog without making general statements.
My hatred is aimed at the ones like ISIS and the people behind the inquisitions, pogroms, genocides, massacres, crusades, holocausts, rapes, tortures, witch-hunts and wars.
For them I have contempt.
For the fundamentalists who believe every word of their particular brand is the only valid perspectives and has to be followed to the intolerant, hate-filled extreme, I have contempt.
For the ones who would indoctrinate children into a narrow way of thinking I have contempt.
Life is about joy, love, adventure, sharing, passion, and tolerance. That is the world I want to share.
You know, I would fight with my last breath for you to be able to have your opinions and say what you believe. You’re one of my favorite people and I’ve learned so much from you. I just WISH I could get you to not make such blanket statements like: “The Christians, Hindus, Jews and Muslims all assert the same thing: if you do not believe in my god and follow my religion you are doomed. Some even go so far as to declare that all non-believers should be tortured and killed.”
You gotta know, Opher, that not everyone who practices some religion believes those things. I certainly don’t. I still hold that if it’s true spirituality the aim of it is love. I know, I know. You probably think I’m naive. 😀 {{{Opher}}}
There is one God, you don’t have to believe if you don’t want to. It is one thing to ridicule or abuse religion/faith/belief it is another to keep hammering the nails into God. Be an atheist it’s up to you, some of us believe in God HE is not the cause of everything that has ever happened Opher. Cheryl may be more polite than me, well I am me and I won’t lie to you.
It’s not god I have a quarrel with. It is power seeking humans who use religion for hatred and division.
I don’t believe in god. but that’s no big deal. If there is a god worthy of the name he won’t judge people on their beliefs but their actions. Belief is of no consequence.
For me religion has been created by people. Other people believe differently. As long as they do not brainwash children I do not have a problem with that.
I’m not attacking god or ridiculing. I’m stating a view.
As for spirituality – that’s a different matter.
I wonder If literate Opher – who apparently opted out of this discussion (?) has read the Torah or any surah ?! – Come on Oph, this thread is *crucial* !
Hi Matt,
Not opting out – I’m looking after grandchildren and only getting to the computer every now and then.
When I was younger I studied a number of religions – including the old testament, new testament, st Johnof the Cross, Zen. Mahayana Buddhism, Teravada Buddhism and some of the Hindu and Sufi texts.
I had a thirst for understanding. I found much worthy and interesting in all. But in the end I rejected them all. I do not believe any of them are the word of a cosmic intelligence. I think they were the wisdom of ancient people’s. Some of that is still valid and some has been superceded.
My understanding is that the Jhe Jewish texts have their basis in a lot of the Sumerian myths, legends and writings.
Opher’s probably feeling ganged up on. Actually we’ve all kind of missed his point which is that religions dictate what a person MUST believe without allowing the person to experience life and then decide on their own, and then some of those religions USE those people they have taught for violent and hateful activities.
I agree with that whole-heartedly. And really, so should both of you. Opher’s beef isn’t with the idea of God. He has no problem with folks believing in a God or gods for that matter. In some ways it’s like the whole gun issue. Some people want to take all the guns away. But the truth is, it’s not guns who hurt people, it’s people who hurt people. People were killing each other with all kinds of things (even their bare hands) long before guns were invented. Opher is saying religion itself isn’t bad, it’s what bad people do with it that’s wrong.
Or am I making it too simplistic, Opher?
Opher isn’t taking the easy way out. He’s simply making a point about indoctrination. Fair enough.
No actually we are not ganging up on Opher he is quite capable of saying what he believes even to the point that it offends at times. Cheryl am I being stupid, is there or is there not One God, you either believe in Him in whatever form you like or you don’t. Quite frankly I don’t give a damn what people believe. No I have not taken it the wrong way. I don’t think anyone is arguing that people use Religion in certain ways that can damage, but not all people are indoctrinate, my Mother was in a small way I remember many years ago the shop where we purchased all our clothes the Husband and Wife that ran it became friends in a way, and we received an Invitation to their eldest Son’s Wedding, my Father said it was an honour as they were Jewish and us Catholics, but my mother believed she should ask the Priest if we could go, I was furious because I was so fond of Mrs Passes, and I saw no reason why the Priest should be asked – of course He said NO and that was that, apart from the fact my Father was furious my mother had been so stupid to ask the Priest. Please don’t say that Opher is not having a go at God, we can’t all be wrong. As for the guns in USA, well yes man uses gun to kill, just as Man starts War, if women were in charge there would be no wars, no woman wants to see her son butchered. God is not a gun. As for both of us agreeing, why should we, this is what all of this is about, views.
We are each entitled to our own brand of religious belief, true; but the plain fact is, there is no way God can be proved OR disproved. So your question doesn’t have an easy yes or no answer, I don’t think, Anna.
No Cheryl. That’s very well put. I don’t have any beef with god or people believing in god. I have a problem with them brainwashing children and fostering division and hatred. I have a problem with religion as power. I have a problem with threats such as fear of hell.
I think that a person should only come to religion when they are old enough to weight it up.
I don’t understand Anna – why do you think I’m having a go at God? I’m not. I’m having a poke at religion when it is used to brainwash, terrorise, or foster hatred and division.
I accept that faith is a personal thing. But contend that religion is man-made.
I know there are a lot of people who disagree with me, but I don’t think you can ever truly OWN your beliefs until you first WALK AWAY FROM THEM and struggle to sort it all out. I think that’s what’s behind the Amish’s practice of rumspringa where they send their young people out into the world to experience life before making a decision about devoting their life to that belief system. One can’t make an informed decision without all the facts. But that’s just my opinion.
Yes – perhaps clumsy of me. I refer to the fundamental wings. But I still believe that the overall tenet from the hierarchy has been, and still is, that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I do know that most of the people who follow any religion have moderate, tolerant views. I should make it clear that they are not the target of my views. Point taken.
Nothing wrong with naivity. Love is all there is.
I know a great many atheists who are good, loving, humanitarian folks. Same with agnostics. Truth is, I guess I fall under the agnostic umbrella myself.
There are good and bad people in all religions, races and nationalities as far as I’m concerned. It’s not about what someone believes. It’s about their heart, intent, tolerance and how much they care.
Of course Religion like everything else is man made what else would it be. I came away from the Catholic Church, I would not crawl to them to be married in the Catholic Church as my Mother wanted, I didn’t give a shit whether they approved or not, I would have lived with David, he was the one who said we had to be married for my Parents sake and his respectability. To answer your question whenever you mention God and religion etc etc you have such bitterness and hatred you may not see it that way but you do and you make one feel well”he has to be right I am wrong” – you asked the question and there is the answer. You don’t need people coming to your defence, you are strong enough. Cheryl, just because Opher is an atheist you don’t have to make out how good they are, my Son is one, so what.
Now then Anna – I’m not sure how to take that.
I have hatred for ISIS and their barbaric rape, torture and horrendous killings.
I have fury for the pogroms. holocausts, witch burnings, inquisitions, crucifixions (There were thousands), impalements, tortures and crusades.
I am angry at the evangelists and their abuse of other cultures and beliefs.
I would ridicule creationists and fundamentalists who think the earth is flat and god planted fossils in the rocks, that people walked with dinosaurs and measure the age of the earth by the ages of people in the bible. I think those people are imbeciles or indoctrinated fools.
But I do not hate god or religion. I think that is you read ing things into what I say or else me being clumsy in explaining my opinions.
Belief in god is a personal matter for adults.
I do not ridicule or despise toleramt religious people or their beliefs. I just do not share those beliefs.
You believe in God Cheryl that was my point, now whether God exists or not it is up to the individual is it not. I was brought up in the Catholic faith and what my parents in particular my mother believed in was the old Irish Catholic faith and believe me there was one, the Priest was God on earth, this is what I rebelled against all the strictness and being told “to go in fear of God”, never once did I go in fear o him. To have a Priest refuse to bless my first Son because I was living in sin, albeit I was married but not in the Catholic Church, load of bollocks that Priest came out with, I needed no blessing from a bloody hypocrite who had a woman on the side. My eldest Son does not believe in God my youngest does, it’s a private matter, I believe in God always have and always will. I don’t believe in religions or whatever you want to call them. By the way what question did I ask?
Well that’s pretty much what I believe. God – who knows – religion – man-made. Faith a personal matter.
You just asked “is there or is there not One God, you either believe in Him in whatever form you like or you don’t. ” My answer is, I don’t know, that the existence of God can’t be proven or disproven.
Then what the hell do you go to Church for. I don’t go to Church but every night I pray to God. You believe what you want He exists or He does noty, I believe He does, everyone can make their own mind up.
I guess, Anna, I go because I believe going and gathering together with good, like-minded people makes me a better person. My struggle with God is just that, my struggle. I seldom bring it up at church. It’s not my wish to make anyone there stumble in their faith because of my doubts. And I was merely saying that I don’t believe one has to believe in God to be a wonderful, loving, helpful person. Believe me, I know Opher can take care of himself. LOL
I set up this blog to put forward my opinions.
I don’t know if you noticed but I am opinionated. I acknowledge that.
I am passionate and I think consistent.
I am a caring, pleasant person who wants to make the world better.
I am angry at things:
Overpopulation
The environment
Fundamentalism
to name but three.
So they recur in my blog.
But I do not think I am ever bitter. And I do not believe I am consumed by hatred.
I am compassionate.
I despise the politicians and religious leaders who use their power for their own grandisement. I despise the inequality that creates so much of the world’s problems – poverty, starvation, war and migration. It creates misery.
I want debate, discussion and argument. I don’t mind if it is offensive. I don’t like personal.
I do not set out to upset. I set out to make people think. I am prepared to argue my case and I don’t mind if someone calls me a twat for thinking it. It’s what I think. I don’t even mind being on my own. If it is what I firmly believe.
By arguing my case I examine my own beliefs and whether they are valid or not.
I’m not always right.
Sometimes I change me mind and concede.
If I come across as arrogant then I am sorry.
I lost track of what reply went with what. But I don’t think you’re arrogant, Opher. I like a person with a well-thought-out opinion. Shows they’re not dead! And you certainly aren’t asking me to believe one thing or another. That is the difference between you and the people you’re talking about. Just keep on doing what you’re doing. It makes me think. 🙂
The question of whether there is a god or not is in my opinion unanswerable. Some people believe there is.
I believe there isn’t.
There’s nothing personal in that and I don’t think less or more of people who believe.
Cheers Matt. Hope you’re good.
I don’t know either
I opt out here.
Don’t blame you.
Thanks Cheryl. I appreciate that. I don’t know how to link this to your comment though.
Sleep well.
Let’s get one thing straight if it is being suggested I called you arrogant, I did not. I won’t have my words twisted.
Anna – I’m not suggesting that. No need to get heated. I know that sometimes when I express my opinions they can come over that way. I don’t mean to sound arrogant – if I get it wrong – tell me. But I did not suggest that you said that. It was me!
Opher, I was not referring to you, you must not always assume that.
Ok.
“Sleep Well” Opher, tomorrow is another day.
And you Anna.
Here is my fourpenny worth … people should be taught how to think but what they think is their own business … I’m with you, Opher, against any indoctrination from whatever source. Education is too important to be left to those whose only interest is preaching.
Cheers Dave. Indoctrination is a sin. Teach people to think – a great way of putting it.
Well I have just reread my post. It was strong and angry.
My anger was created by two incidents.
The first was experiencing South America. I saw the huge number of churches and cathedrals while the people lived in slums. I heard the tale of the 500,000 Tierra Del Fuego Indians who were killed by the Europeans – the missionaries who professed to save their souls. I read of the terrible things done to the Incas.
The second focus was the woman who took her son to fight for ISIS. She believed that we in England were all doomed to burn in hell. She could only save herself and son by joining ISIS. As ISIS are the most depraved bunch of sadists on the planet this seemed insane.
Fuelled by that I wrote my piece. I can see why it would have angered people of faith. Perhaps I should have toned it down.
Tribalism was part of the inevitable evolution of man. We were built to survive and we will turn our smartness into a survival mechanism.
The civilization you speak of has not happened all that has happened is technological advance. Apes in suits and ties. In the tribe total faith in victory was essential and we see the trait in nations today. With great advances in science we still easily slip into a mind – set which overrides our conscience and makes us capable of anything. Many highly intelligent men and women are in ISIS education is no weapon against radical thought it is ingrained in us all.
‘Human evil is a natural phenomenon and some measure of predatory violence is innate in us.’ Sam Harris well known atheist.
Kertsen – I agree with you. Civilisation is a thin veneer over extremely primitive, tribal behaviour. It is deeply ingrained. I love that line – Apes in suits and ties – can I steal that? We are cruel and predatory – it is in our nature.
However I contend that human beings also have a civilised, empathetic, caring, altruistic side. That is what I put my faith in. I believe we can become civilised and that education is the way of doing that.
Yes we are dual personalities as Freud beautifully explained and we are often at war with ourselves. The inner conscience says do one thing and the ambitious desires say do another.
This is because we are self-aware and that makes us self-judgemental . Sometime in the very distant past we left the secure animal kingdom and became human . The brilliant writer of genesis twigged this and created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Too late ! we’ve eaten it and we must swallow the consequences. Unfortunately the ambitions rule the conscience in most of us and the evidence is the world before us.
Nature is amoral and we must battle every inch of the way to progress. Now we have an antibiotic apocalypse on our hands and a destructive climate yet we seem bent on visiting the red planet.
I think the fact that we are animals is part of the problem. As animals we have evolved to do whatever we can to gain food, mates and space. Unfortunately technology has meant that we have become far too successful. Our numbers are out of control and our impact on the environment is enormous. The tribal system that works well in hunter/gatherer situations does not work with nations/religions/cities. It creates the problem.
Yes you are right but can the leopard change his spots? I very much doubt it so we will fall on our own swords. I do not think we will be wiped out but greatly fragmented and the clock turned back by the forces we cannot control. Remember we survived the Black Death without medicine but the carnage was awful. Some philosophers think we are like super computers in which case a complete reprogramming would be be needed. Perhaps we are a trial life form that has failed to reach the stars. I remember a science fiction story called the sentinel which pictured a super intelligent life form waiting in the wings to see just what mankind might make of themselves.
Is that the Arthur C Clarke Sentinel?
My hope is that the good side of our duality can be nurtured and the bad side controlled. There’s evidence for it despite the mayhem and stupidity that fills the world. There is also love and peace.
I think it’s in the balance. Time’s running out.
Time is running out for us all.
Possibly. But that means we have to fight to make the best of what is to come.
“Fight”? Isn’t that what you are always opposed to. There is only so much that any individual can do.
ah yes. But I mean fight in the sense of striving hard – not physically fighting. I believe that if we all put our energies into positive things we can change things. That’s the fight I advocate.
I know what you meant, just see you saying “fight” all the time, made me smile. (was I being too rude perhaps). “If we all put our energies into positive things we can change things” nice if it all came to fruition.
No you weren’t being rude. I think we have to make it happen. What is the other choice?
Give up, not serious. I have been watching the most incredible Moon this last week and the Sun rising. One World, what is wrong with these people who are trying to destroy it. They won’t win, they can’t win sooner or later they all have to come to their senses. Or the whole world fights.
Well, we continue to watch and see who is attacked next. Terrible thought.
I am off now, try and catch up with some tidying up. Jonathan has a job on a Sunday as a Supervisor of “Mind” Charity shop, has to open up, close the shop etc. Nearly every day he is Volunteering in the Shop. Seen a change in him already, thank God (sorry Opher, no offence).. “Sleep warm”
That sounds like just what he needs! Hope it goes on from there. You sleep warm too.
Very interesting post. I came looking for similar themed articles after writing my own piece. I agree with your sentiments, that ultimately, we have to acknowledge the issues religion is causing. Which primarily, at this point in time, appears to be radical Islam.
That is the main thrust at the moment. in the past iot was Christianity. Though I am sure that Hinduism killed its share of Muslims during the partition of India. I think it is the arrogant intolerance that disturbs me most – it incites hatred and violence.
The sooner we rid ourselves of these medieval superstitions and make laws to prevent the abuse of children by indoctrination the better.
Thanks for your comment – much appreciated.