Brexit – The reasons why Brexit won’t work.

Posted on by Opher

It is my opinion that the leaders of the Brexit campaign have, like Trump in America, played a very deceitful game. They have played on people’s fears and offered simplistic solutions to complex problems. In the process they have consistently lied and misled. All warnings about the consequences of their actions are met with the ‘project fear’ response and ‘scaremongering’ jibes. Yet they have consistently failed to present coherent strategies for dealing with these huge and pressing issues.

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Here is why I think their ideas are flawed.

  1. Make Britain Great again – well we are already punching well above our weight as a member of the G7 with the seventh biggest economy in the world. Our previous ‘greatness’ was based upon having an empire from which we extracted great wealth. We no longer have an empire and will never rise higher without one. Becoming great again is a pipe-dream. We live in the world with the USA, Russia, China, India, Germany, France, Japan, Indonesia, Canada, Australia and a bunch of others. We are doing very well. Brexit would make us less powerful and influential. Far from making us great again it would reduce our power.
  2. Sovereignty (we want our country back) – The notion of sovereignty is really about Kings and Queens though it has become associated with government and who makes the laws. At present, being part of the EU, some of our laws on workers rights, human rights, the environment and trade, are made by all the partners in the EU. They unify the situation through the EU countries. We, as a country, elect MEPS and have had a leading input into creating those EU laws. The bulk of our laws come from the British government. They do not seem to have had a great deal of trouble putting stringent laws into force that have decimated out public services and rained austerity down on the heads of the poor and public servants while giving tax cuts to the rich. I haven’t noticed Osborn and Cameron hampered too much in their endeavours. The British retain their identity and are free to make laws in most areas. Personally I would prefer to have international legislation on these issues with Britain having a say in them. The real people who hold the power are the shady establishment figures who control the politicians. Democracy is a bit of a sham. Claiming ‘sovereignty’ will merely put more power in the hands of an exceedingly vicious extreme right-wing government led by Boris and Gove. No thank you. Cameron and Osborn are bad enough. I’d prefer to be ruled by just about anyone other than that. Leaving the EU will not stop the establishment pulling the strings and will saddle us with the most extreme government we could imagine – goodbye NHS and Education – hello austerity, privatisation and more profit for the rich. What a farce.
  3. Bureaucracy – There is too much bureaucracy and that needs dealing with but it will only get worse if we leave. We will still need to comply with the EU if we want to trade and instead of easy access there will be tariffs and barriers involving much more paperwork. On top of that we will have to sort out a minefield of paperwork to deal with in each and every other trading agreement. It will be a nightmare. Leaving the EU will make bureaucracy worse not better.
  4. Migration – There are too many people coming into the country. It is putting too much of a strain on our infrastructure (housing, schools, NHS, roads etc.). That is true. We need border control. Brexit will not solve that. We presently have border control (except the government halved the number of people involved). We have absolute control of who comes in from outside the EU yet half of our immigration was from outside the EU. We need labour from the EU to maintain our economy. The trade negotiations negotiated following Brexit will inevitably enable that movement and it is what business and politicians want because of the economy. They pay lip-service to it but nothing will change. Contrary to the propaganda we can deport criminals. We already have the power. The benefits claiming has been tightened up. Brexit will not change immigration. Britain needs to be on the inside tightening the whole thing up further – not on the outside being subject to whatever the others decide. Leaving the EU will not solve immigration.
  5. Terrorism – We live in the age of terrorism. At present it is ISIS. In the past we’ve had the IRA, Baader Meinhof and Red Brigade. Who knows what will be next? ISIS is a pernicious evil that needs eradicating. It has, along with a large influx of Muslim immigrants, led to a great deal of fear beyond the level of their barbarous activities. Each new atrocity receives maximum publicity. Islamophobia and hate crime has increased. The Brexit campaign has focussed on this. They cite border control as the solution. Except it isn’t. Nearly all the attacks have come from home-grown terrorists. The answer is not simple it involves education, integration, intelligence, monitoring, surveillance and military eradication of the fundamentalist groups around the world (Taliban, ISIS, Boko Haaram, Al Qaeda and the rest). This can only be achieved from greater cooperation and unified action. The phenomenon is international and requires an international response. And yes – there does need to be greater border controls. But isolationism, walls and border controls will not solve the problem. Brexit would make matters worse. Islamophobia will lead to more radicalisation. We would be more unsafe. We need to be on the inside creating better monitoring systems, surveillance, sharing intelligence and cooperating. We need our Muslims integrated and working with us against the evil Wahabi doctrine.
  6. The Economy – According to the Brexiters we will have millions to spent on compensating farmers, the NHS and everything else. They’ve spent it twenty times over. Except that firstly they lie about the sum of money paid to the EU – it is about a third of what they claim – and they take no account of the detrimental effects on the markets and trade. We will have a period of six or seven years with a level of turmoil and uncertainty that is already undermining the pound. We will be back into a recession and the effects will be even worse because we have already cut things to the bone after years of austerity. Some businesses will undoubtedly leave. Our economy will shrink and that will make our contribution to the EU look paltry. Far from funding the NHS and everything else we will be cutting and privatising just to keep going. To maintain a position as seventh largest economy will be threatened. Leaving the EU could be disastrous and almost certainly will be very painful. If you have no money you cannot maintain a world standing and provide services. You cannot defend yourself against ISIS or other aggressors.

I am for staying in; not because I love the EU but because I think it is best for the country, will keep us safer, richer and protect our rights. I want a world of greater unity, cooperation and stability. I want to deal with the war, poverty, environmental damage, overpopulation and third world misery that is fuelling the mass migration and fundamentalism. I want to have greater tolerance, freedom, equality and justice. I would like to see greater integration and an end to the crippling superstition of religion that is holding so much of the world back.

Fragmentation will not be a step forward. I want a brighter future to look forward to – not a world shaking behind walls. I want terrorism defeated not hidden away from. I want the world’s problems addressed and put right and big multinationals held to account. I want an end to war, poverty, environmental damage and overpopulation. We can only do all that internationally.

In the EU we can tighten things up and deal with the gravy train, bureaucracy and inequalities. That is the best way forward.

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106 thoughts on “Brexit – The reasons why Brexit won’t work.”

    1. Great cartoon Dave! I think we might…………and I think we might live to regret it. I’m more than a little worried.

      1. Friend of mine said they’re aren’t lots of Remain posters because knowing the oikish tendency on the other side, people don’t want their windows put through. Hoping the polls are bluster & letting off steam by people who won’t bother to vote when it comes to it …

      2. It’s a shame so many people think with their glands and not their brains. But the Brexit people have been clever in how they’ve kept the focus on immigration and countered everything with scaremongering. I think they’ve got people believing all the dire warnings from every quarter are fear-mongering. I can understand people’s concerns and fears. I just can’t see Brexit as an answer to anything. Johnson and Gove, with all their power madness, should feel ashamed. They have no answers – their whole campaign has been about putting them in power at the expense of the country. Let’s hope it sneaks past the post.

  2. Opher, I can agree with some of the points above simply because I have previously said the very same myself. But, I can’t agree with the take on “scaremongering” as this is coming from both sides, therefore, trite to condemn just the Brexit’s for doing such.
    It’s also somewhat incongruous to read condemnation of Cameron, when he is spearheading what you seem to agree with. Where are you going with that – or is this just more quite unnecessary and extraneous hate conjecture towards the Tories?
    Perhaps you would rather be having Labour completely screwing things up again as it would be easier to swallow?
    Of course, you wrote this before Gove’s BBC Question Time broadcast 2 nights ago, where I thought he handled himself very well and gave a great deal of food for thought with his answers.
    He gave a forthright account of the pros and cons.
    Contrary to your claims within a recent previous post on this issue, where you made claim that the UK “produces next to nothing”, Gove reminded us that the UK operates the most productive car manufacturing plant in Europe, Nissan, producing some 900 vehicles per day. I believe that this factory is not a million miles from yourself.

    I walked into my local Lidl store this morning to be met by the unusual sight of some dozen shoppers of various ages, some local, some foreign, 20-30 somethings in suits etc, all crowded around the newspaper stand discussing the impending vote. I had to apologetically squeeze through them to get to the basket stacks and without any introduction was asked “so, what do you think?”. Mindful of the diverse audience and the fact that I didn’t know any of them, I cautiously said that there’s a strong case on both sides. The question was repeated and I could see them all looking at me….waiting! I said “OK, all things considered I hate what’s happening to the UK, immigration is a disaster and we seem to attract far too much of the wrong types of people. Unemployment figures of foreign Euro nationals in this postcode area are 80%. Even the under 25’s from Spain are 30% unemployed. It’s just not going to plan, is it?”
    3 of the foreigners spoke up in agreement – 2 eastern Euro, 1 Indian – with the eastern Euros saying “the authorities have no idea of the rubbish that’s coming here – they are unemployable!”.
    The questioner asked the whole group, so what’s your vote? 11 people said “Leave” and 2 were still hovering. I was asked if I am going to the demo for “Leave” this Saturday. I said I didn’t think I needed to given the consensus of opinion that was just expressed!

    I guess it’s actually a question of what one is exposed to. Those of us living in inner-city residential areas see it all for what it is – that being surrounded by immigrants all wandering around aimlessly during the day without a job to go to.
    As for “Islamophobia” – you better believe it. I pop into Lidl’s almost every day and see the Muslim mothers with their gaggle of sprogs – and not a word of English is ever expressed towards these children from them. I can’t be the only one with such concerns. Yet the Indian Sikh community are entirely the opposite and integrate very well. Most probably their English language skills are the reason for this.
    Most of the Asian non-food shops round my way are in the business of selling bootleg computer Windows programmes, knocked off phones and pirate DVD’S. Wholesome business ethics it is certainly not. But the Police leave them to it as it’s all they’ve got anyway and it’s not exactly crime of the century. Plus the Police are way too busy with the hordes of eastern Euro shoplifting gangs. Every Friday lunchtime I’m usually in the same city mall coffee shop and see another handcuffed pair being led away for what seems like every 5 minutes. It’s incredible.

    Opher, your claims of successful integration of Pakistani’s within the UK, are frankly, unrealistic.
    You might see some Pakistani school children freely mixing with the locals. You may even have the occasional chat with your local shop owner that’s been in the UK for decades and even his children that work there, too. I do, too. But that means nothing as it’s when they leave school that the divisions again manifest themselves and the majority of Muslims simply retreat back into the depths of the Muslim community. In general terms they do not all run your friendly local shop and the majority as adults seldom mix whatsoever. Only the extreme moderates will and they are quite short on the ground.
    I never see any of them in the restaurants I use, the cinemas (or at least the films that I go to see regularly), the music concerts that I regularly attend, the pubs (obviously), very seldom in the museums that I often like to spend an afternoon in, or anywhere near the countryside. In fact, not ever do I see them at any countryside destination. It must be said that the average Asian immigrant has not a clue about anything or anywhere outwith their immediate work/residential zone. At least that’s my experience – as I always ask them. Countryside pursuits are just not on their agenda to go find out and see, simply because at the root of it all, they simply do not possess any interest or regard for it. It’s a crying shame really and they are certainly the losers in this aspect of lifestyle, therefore, I suggest that their religious fervour and community at large are the reason for this lack of activity. Their whole lives are centralised around the machinations of the local Mosque and it goes no further.

    1. I think the scare-mongering by Brexit is worse. Their tactics are to ratchet up the fear of immigration and Islamophobia and counter every warning from experts on the economy, security, terrorism, workers rights, human rights, and environmental damage as scare-mongering.
      I think you’re right on some things Andrew. It does depend where you live. Things are worse in some places.
      I know Muslims can be integrated. I had Pakistani friends in my younger days who thought very like me. I know a number of Muslim kids who went to my school who were as English as anyone. That is not to hide the problems created by too much immigration and too little integration. These are problems that need addressing. Likewise the number of children – not merely confined to immigrant families. It is easy to bring in laws to deal with this. Why are we still giving out benefits?
      You know my views on religion – I’d do away with the whole damn lot of medieval superstition. The stupidity is not just confined to Muslims, the Jews, Hindus and Christians can be just as bad. They all have their fundamentalist factions, their share of intolerance, hatred and stupidity.
      It’s about time that we, as a country, stopped shilly-shallying around through fear of being accused of racism and started applying the law to deal with a variety of transgressions.
      Cameron was a fool. He promised this disruptive referendum in order to keep his right-wing on side during an election that he did not expect to win. He thought that he’d be in coalition again and would be able to dump it and blame it on the LibDems. I despise the way he is willing to put everything in jeopardy for his own political power. What he has done to public services and the poor under the guise of austerity (remember – we’re all in it together) while giving tax cuts to the rich is cynical and typical. He and Osborn are despicable but products of their background and by no means as rabid as Gove and Johnson who represent the extreme right-wing.

      1. I care not for their words – they mean zilch to me and stand not one chance of changing my mind – that being either side. I judge the situation for myself.
        That’s why I suggested to you to take a run down into Bolton, Bradford and Burnley and have a good look around for yourself. See how the other half live kinda thing. It’s a freakin’ nightmare just waiting to explode into something else entirely.
        In defense of London’s ex-mayor, I think that Boris just might have some kind of inkling into the disaster that we now have – regardless of his personal politics. East London has become an entirely different continent and rapidly spreading north and south too.
        The new guy, Khan – he who called moderate Muslims “Uncle Tom’s” is a dangerous unknown quantity. I simply cannot believe how he got that job.
        Why do my London friends – 2 of whom I’ve known since `79, tell me “it’s all completely fecked, we can’t wait to get out of here”.
        And just the very thought of Turkey joining the EU rings every alarm bell. 90 million hard-boiled Islamics let loose into Europe. Where the hell are the Byzantines when we need them? Anyone who is happy with that prospect must be certifiable and their custody calls!
        Get your old Crusader cape out from the loft – you may need it.

      2. Andrew – this should be a rational, intelligent decision in which we weigh up the facts. The very way you say that indicates that you are not weighing them up.
        We all look at things from our own situation but then should, in my opinion, extrapolate that out.
        I’ve been to Bradford recently. I have good friends living nearby. I was concerned by the number of immigrants there congregated into one place. I did not feel threatened when walking around and my friends in Leeds and Halifax feel more threatened by the gangs of feral white yobs.
        I have many friends and relatives living in London, including a son. He loves it there just as I love it when I go down. I love the dynamism and variety. There is a great vibrancy about a cosmopolitan community. I’ve just returned from London and had a great time. I certainly do not recognise horror you describe.
        Khan sounds alright to me. A great step forward from Johnson. Can’t see why he is dangerous. Unless you are tarring him with an extremist brush?
        My friends (of whom I have a number) have lived in London from the sixties and still love it. They brought up their kids there and have no intention of moving out even though they could afford mansions anywhere else in the country with the absurd prices their houses would fetch. I’d love to move back there if I could afford it. It is so full of energy and vibrancy.
        Turkey is not poised to join the EU – another scare story. They are going through a lengthy process that is extremely unlikely to reach fruition. Britain has a vet on their entry.
        I do not share fear of Islam. I detest the Wahabi doctrine and would fight that, but most Muslims are harmless, indoctrinated religious moderates. They are no worse than the indoctrinated fundamentalist Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus or whatever. I’d do away with it all. Children should not be indoctrinated.

  3. I am not going to get into any real conversation with you because you only see that Remain are the decent people and the only way to go. That is why your friend Dave Kingsbury refers to the people who want Out as “Oikish”, charming – I wonder who the real liars are. Nice to know that, someone who intended to Vote Remain because I supported Europe, switched some time ago to Leave. Not only am I working class, but I am now “Oikish” and I do take his disgusting remark as personal. Perhaps your friend should have been with me yesterday when I went to Frinton-on-Sea for the day. How dare someone like me from Clacton-on-Sea visit Frinton, they want the money but not anyone who is not Frintonian. I know what these people are like from there, so bloody English, pompous English. Let me tell you they would probably lynch anyone who did not vote to Leave, these are rich, rich, rich “God Save the Queen”, close the Borders etc. They are as boring as the other lot who state all the time all the so called lies of the Leave Campaign. The Remain are not liars, come off it. The other morning at 3am I listened to Hesseltine on BBC Foreign Service, he repeated all you say, is there some kind of leaflet you all use? Here in Clacton-on-Sea it is without doubt “Leave”, our MP sometime ago switched from Tory to UKIP, and he is so popular. I should inform him, Douglas Carswell, that those who want out are “Oikish”, and yes Opher I have taken your friend’s disgusting remark as personal, behaviour of former Teacher!!

    It is a close call as to who will win, I hope whoever wins, the other side will have the decency to accept the decision. I fear there will be trouble.

    1. Worry ye not Anna. There are nutters everywhere. It’s not that long ago that up in Hartlepool – quite near Opher – that they hanged a monkey, thinking it was a French spy. Now I’m not for one moment suggesting that all people that live in the north east of England are in fact monkey hangers…..

      1. Thank heavens the xenophobia is not quite at that level these days.
        But Anna – Andrew makes the same point as me – feelings run high and there are nutters on both sides.

      2. Yes I know about that one Andrew, my youngest Son David informed me. Poor little Monkey, there you are my sympathies would be with the Monkey. I get too emotional don’t I Opher!

    2. I hope that when the dust settles it will all really settle. I suspect it won’t.
      But once again Anna there is nothing to take personally. You know that there is an obnoxious Oikish tendency on both sides. If you put up posters of whatever persuasion you are likely to have your windows put through. Some people are nasty and violent. Good grief – we’ve just had an MP murdered for her views.
      I have just read what Dave said – he certainly did not say that all leavers were Oikish. Don’t take it personally and react so emotionally. This is a blog for people to exchange views on controversial subjects. Argue your case with reason and intelligence. There is a case for both sides.
      Heavens above I have received sufficient put-downs and disparaging remarks on a very personal basis. I have my views and I set them out as clearly as I can. I try to shrug off the disparaging remarks and personal slurs and insults.
      But Anna – you are being personal – comments about ‘is there some kind of leaflet we all use?’ is beneath you. I am intelligent enough to research, think through and put forward my own views. I don’t need stuff from Cameron and Heseltine, both of whom I have little time for. I hate those pompous English twerps as much as you. Let’s not fall out over having different views.
      I firmly believe leaving the EU is going to result in a dire situation for the country and especially the poor and public servants. I speak my own mind.
      I am extremely scathing of the EU gravy train, its poor decision making and the migration crisis, but I still believe strongly that being in is the best way of dealing with the things that are wrong and that it makes us safer, more powerful and wealthier. If you read everything I ever write it is about a global system. My philosophy is to move towards that.

      1. Well let’s say you have been waiting for me to respond, after all I “get too emotional”, I guess that’s part being a Woman and having Irish Blood, I am hot tempered. Here goes;
        1. I have Posters up on my window to “Leave the EU” and have not had any windows smashed, maybe because it is a well to do area or maybe it’s because this is the safest Town to vote Leave.

        2 You cannot state unless you have spoken to the Police and I know you have connections, as so many of us do, that Jo Cox was murdered for her views. The man could have mental problems, he could have lost his job, lost his home, asked her for help, you simply do not know none of us do until it is made official why he murdered her.

        3 How dare you patronize me in such a manner, and yes I have taken that personally and yes I am emotional you have seen to that, my Sons finding in me tears. How dare you say in such a patronizing way “argue your case with reason and intelligence”. Do you think for one moment I would type those words to you – it is ignorance to have done so.

        4 You accuse me of being personal when I referred to Hesseltine and some leaflet you must all read. Did you hear that interview than I hope you did. For if you researched all your info so did Hesseltine or his Researchers and came to the same conclusion as you, and the Remain lot.

        5 You cannot stop yourself can you Opher, oh yes I read the comments elsewhere about you have the right to free speech etc – no one said you did not, people like your Father, my Husband fought the Germans, or in David’s case he was in Burma (and we all know what Burma was like). I had Friends who fought in the Middle East and elsewhere so we would have Freedom and Free Speech. But you just keep on and on and you talk about the other side, my God I have heard less from Politicians.

      2. Anna I am not being patronising. You respond so emotionally instead of arguing why you believe what you do. I respect your views. If you explained why you believe in Brexit it would make more sense.
        I don’t have any posters up – I am sure my windows would be smashed. I don’t even put Labour posters up. There are rabid idiots in this village. I’ve had damage before.
        I set up my blog to argue my views. That is what I do. I have 6600 people that are following. I write for them as well even if they do not participate. I know a lot of them follow the arguments. You take things too personally when nothing personal is intended. I am merely stating my views.
        I don’t know exactly why Jo was murdered but the guy has racist connections and repeatedly said – Britain first!
        When I said argue with intelligence and reason it is precisely because you tend to respond with so much anger and emotion instead of logical argument. I would much prefer a non-emotional discussion of the pros and cons than emotional outburst. I find it upsetting too. There is much to weigh up and argue. I do not set out to patronise or put you down. I want you to explain why you believe what you do instead of outbursts. That is all.
        I wouldn’t say things like ‘How dare you’. I find it rude. I am certainly not trying to put you down.

  4. I already said it previously several days ago. I simply cannot follow any hippy dippy ideology considering what I get to see on a daily basis. That’s a daily basis, Opher, not the occasional trip.
    Yes, we all have friends who haven’t a clue either. So what?
    The only reason East London is held together in any shape or form is due to the West Indian and Irish communities. The Islamics look after themselves.
    So you walked around Bradford and were concerned. Start there.
    Did you expect to feel threatened? Would it have to get to that stage before you took a more serious outlook towards this? Or were you only concerned for yourself and to hell with those that have to live there all the time? I bet you were bloody thankful that it was only a short visit. And I bet you didn’t come near any of the housing schemes.

    I like diversity too, but you cannot have diversity if Islam has any part to play in it. You’re on a total loser there. Forget it. Far too many of them absolutely hate our guts and want absolutely nothing to do with us. When will this register with you?
    I go to London quite often myself, short trips mainly for concerts in the first instance – 4 times so far this year. My friends since `79, who used to live in Streatham, but moved (due to the black problem) further out to Purley in the late 80’s. I can remember Purley when it was majority Londoners. Today it is something else entirely. I also call in to other friends in Kentishtown N5.
    It’s almost unrecognisable, too. The population contingent has completely flipped the other way around.

    You can’t see why Khan is dangerous having called moderate Muslims “Uncle Toms”?
    You should have a good deep think about the connotations of such a remark.
    Had Boris Johnston said such, we would never have heard the end of it. The media would have whipped every once of blood out of him for that. Meanwhile, Khan sits pretty. There’s something very insidiously creepy about that factor. These Left-Wing maniacs have a hell of a lot to answer for. Yet they’re protected and exactly who by I’ll never know.
    And yet you accuse me of perhaps tarring him with an extremist brush – when in fact I convey to you absolutely irrefutable truthful fact and yet all you offer in return is mindless conjecture. Get real, man. I think any extremism will be found within the very words of Khan, don’t you think?
    What does “Uncle Tom” really mean? What does this mean to you? Or are you simply just going to play your usual game of ignoring everything and anything contrary to what your views are.
    How you can be remotely impressed with such an individual is frankly, remarkable.

    I can’t share you views on wanting to live in London again. You get nothing for your money, particularly property, it’s an all too expensive rip-off. And it’s nothing like it used to be. Nothing close. I’d need £750k to get something akin to what I live in now. Forget it.

    Britain has been paying for Turkey’s readiness to join the Eurozone for quite some time now. Turkey and 4 other suspect countries including 4th world Albania.
    This is not scaremongering, it is fact and complete bullshit to suggest otherwise.
    Indeed Britain gets a vote, but so do many other countries. So how seriously can we weigh down on any prospect of Turkey not getting to join?
    Why do you keep bandying around this “scaremongering” term when the facts are right in front of you. The Eurozone wants Turkey to join, but on it’s terms and only when Turkey is ready.
    It’s only a matter of time. It might be 5 years or so, but it will happen eventually.

    Interestingly, during Gove’s question and answer BBC session (that I hope you took the time to watch) he mentioned, not incidentally, that the EU is run by 5 unelected Presidents. These people can be called up to account for nothing and have free reign of affairs. That in itself rings every alarm bell and I would question why anyone would want such an arrangement. It is nothing but a Politocracy, as the people have no power at all and all democracy has been eroded.

    What about the Wahibi’s? They are only a part of the problem. There are another 52 Islamic factions at play. There are 53 different Islamic sects, all with varying amounts of followers, fundamentalist doctrine, beliefs and customs. Some of course are more violent than others. Some are fairly moderate and take a regular hammering from their more violent “brothers”.
    Since 9/11 (whoever was responsible is debatable but this is the nominated date) there have been in excess of 20,000 Jihad attacks worldwide.
    What the hell is “moderate” about that Opher. 20 fucking thousand!
    The 3 former Yugoslavian Balkan countries looking to also join the EU have a heavy duty Islamic doctrine. In fact, many of the Slavic population whom were not originally Muslim, were converted through the fear and terror of the Ottoman tradition of having their heads cut off and paraded on a stick and their wives raped in front of said heads. I think these sorry people certainly do not share your most liberal stance on the imaginary fear of Islam.
    They have nothing whatsoever in common with fundamentalist Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus etc. and it is simply ludicrous to suggest such.
    In fact, I’d like to remind of the Pakistani wars in late 60s-1970ish. Following the forced movement of the Muslims to the north of India shortly after WW2, because they would not stop their applied terrorism against the Indians (of over 300 different faiths) even then the Pakistanis of multiple Muslim sects could not integrate with each other, hence West and East Pakistan.
    The East took a hammering with untold numbers beheaded, hence, the formation of the sorry state of Bangladesh. They even managed to severe their own country. And how many of their political leaders have been assassinated?
    I can remember as a child seeing a photograph of a man holding another man’s severed head by the hair on the front page of a newspaper. This made quite an impression on me, to say the least. I asked my mother about it as she had a great knowledge of India due to her father having been born there (his folks were tea farmers) and she explained it all to me. I don’t think anything has changed since, do you?
    Maybe 2 years ago, I heard about an Australian guy who used to be part of our social group in Jakarta, Indonesia. He lost a hand in that Bali disco bombing. Indonesia executed the guy that masterminded it, despite protests of leniency from the wooly-headed, tree-hugging Liberals.

    You claim that most Muslims are simply indoctrinated religious moderates and harmless. Judging from my personal experiences with actually working in 4 Muslim countries for some period of time, I could not agree with you.
    Iranians had followed peaceful Zoharastrianism, before forced into Islam.
    Indonesians were Hindu and Buddhists before forced into Islam.
    And we all know that history has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

    Have a read of the Pew Research Centers recent reports on radicalisation.

    Chamberlain said Churchill was “scaremongering” about Hitler. Yeah, right.

    I’m still laughing at that gross idiot Diane Abbott, who in 2013 said “the more immigrants living in your area, the less likely you are going to be worried about it”. Speak for yourself Diane.

    How many more times do I have to hear that only a society in which Islam plays a major part is modern and multicultural. Any alternative is neo-Fascist, racist and Islamophobic.
    European left-wingers are the plague of the white race.

    We need to be able to speak our minds without harassment from social justice warriors.
    I’d much rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

    1. Wow Andrew – what a diatribe of hate and fear. You live in a different world to me. I have concerns. You have terrors. BTW – Britain has a veto on Turkey – not a vote. Unless we vote out. Then we don’t have a say.

      1. Yes we do. You live out in the sticks and I live in inner city multicultural metropolis.
        Read it again Opher. I simply conveyed some facts. Make of them as you will. Check them out for authenticity. You will never catch me giving you any bullshit.
        For you to interpret as “hate” is just silly.
        Fear, yes indeed. I’ve seen their bullying brutality for myself.
        My ex-wife saw horrendous stuff for herself, by force from the religious police in Saidi, with public execution by sword and floggings.
        My friend Igor from Yugoslavia, whom I met in `83 was slaughtered with all his family. I made inquiries with the authorities after the Balkan conflict and that was the reply.
        Yes, I do harbour great personal worry and grief concerning all things Islam.

        So you want to pull me up on the differences between a veto and a vote? A Veto is a constitutional right to reject a legislative enactment and a Vote is a formal expression of choice or opinion by means of a ballot, show of hands, etc., concerning a choice of candidate, approval of a motion or resolution etc. At least according to my Oxford dictionary.
        In this case I really can’t see much difference.

        So you’re prepared to hang in there, throwing millions of pounds away every week just on the off-chance that Turkey might or might not get into the EU? Meanwhile, Europe just might see some major turmoil that for one reason or another we become forced to get involved in?
        Merkel has already allegedly made private (according to the underground press reports and I can’t confirm if it is true or not) her fears of Germany’s state of affairs towards UK to not disband it’s forces from the Rhinelands, which are due for completion by 2020.
        I wonder why?

      2. Two things Andrew – A vote is one in many – the majority win. A veto is when one vote can stop it happening. Surely you know that?
        Andrew you select information that you use. I share a lot of your concerns but not to the same extent. I hate religion and its effects. I’ve written books on it. I deplore the violence, intolerance and viciousness of all religions – it’s not that long ago that we were burning catholics in Smithfield.
        Not for one minute do I believe that Brexit will solve migration or the islamification of Britain and Europe. I believe it will make matters worse. We are better cooperating and sorting the mess out.
        Now as nobody knows what will happen all we have to go on is our perspective, intelligence and the information to hand. Both sides are exaggerating and lying. We listen and make judgements.
        What yo come out with are not facts. They are anecdotes and selected information that reveal a view, perspective and attitude. You sell your knowledge as facts but they are only part of the story.
        I’ve lived in cities – London, Hull and Los Angeles and I’ve met all kinds of people. I have faith in people.
        Could Merkel’s fears be a fear of Putin?

    1. About that Anna – though burnings of witches went on a lot longer. Reading Hilary Mantel’s books on Thomas Cromwell is quite an eye-opener.

      2. I can recommend the recent film titled “The Witch”. These evil religious tyrants really had a handle on their artistry.

  6. You really can’t stop yourself can you Opher, whether you like it or not you are being patronizing, others may not agree that’s up to them, to me you are. One of your problems is you do not read what one puts, I have explained to you time and time again why I decided to switch from Remain to Leave, I have no intention of repeating it.

    “When I said argue with intelligence and reason it is precisely because you tend to respond with so much anger and emotion instead of logical argument. I would much prefer an non emotional discussion of the pros and cons than emotional outbursts”. And you find that not patronizing. So I take it you are the only one that has logical answers to everything, I guess that is why you repeat the same things over and over. Sorry I am not intelligent enough for you, of course you were the Teacher along with another, of course you will take that as a criticism, when in fact it is a question. Trouble is I try always to see the best in people and am usually let down. I trust in people too much, and always get kicked in the backside. I need to harden up wouldn’t you say. Then I would not be Anna, and I like myself it’s taken me time after all the crap that was thrown at me from a child to just a few years ago.

    Well I take it you are a very hard person emotionally, I much prefer someone who is not only intelligent but shows his emotional side too, rather than lecture someone – and you can say that comment has come from a calm woman. Emotional outbursts, do you know what you sound like.

    I will let you into a secret, I never ever respond to you without reading 2/4 times what I have typed. I had a truly gifted Boss at the Pru, she taught me many things that have helped me in life. One of those little things she taught me was read what you write/type two or more times, you will spot mistakes, take your time to read through all your work – I never let anything go when it is like this above without reading through. Still Anger and emotion. I don’t think so.

    1. Anna – I was not intending to be patronising. There is much to discuss on Brexit. Nobody knows what the outcome will be. That is what I would like to be doing. Would Brexit solve the immigration crisis? Would Brexit result in a severely damaged economy? Would Brexit put a right-wing extreme into power? And a host of others. There are many views and much conjecture.
      I am a highly emotional person and I do tend to react and write without double checking. So I make mistakes.
      I’m not after you repeating the same things but am trying to go into things in a bit more depth. I am probing for clarity. There was no put-down intended. I am in no way suggesting you are not intelligent – far from it; I want to explore the issues further.
      And yes – I do have the flaw of repeating the same things over and over in different ways. I’ll try and curb it.
      I have strong feelings on it and try to lay them out as clearly as I can. That is all.

      1. What is wrong with you, despite the final comments that were made to you last night to let it rest – you still come back, with the above at 8.49am. You can say you were answering my remarks made at 10.15pm you did not have to, you could have let them go. You read my comments at 5 past midnight and answered that you agreed that should have been the end of this. What is your problem, is it you have to have the last word, it looks like that. I am not being emotional Opher I am just appalled that you like to continue arguing. Well I don’t.

      2. Anna I always answer every message left on my blog. I’m not continuing arguing. I simply do not understand this attitude.

  7. But I don’t believe that one countries opinion would sway the general consensus if this was the case. At what point in any previous EU legislation have they ever required a 100% veto on anything. Despite that, I’d actually have to hear this directly from Cameron’s mouth ie., “we will not veto the entry of Turkey into the EU.” He has not so far said this and has only made reference to the fact that UK has a veto. I need more than that. A lot more. He is also very unlikely to be in such a position come that glorious moment anyway, so it’s all total bull.

    Of course I select information, otherwise I’d be here all week. You get the drift in a couple of paragraphs surely. I mention information pertinent to context. My own views are seriously buried.
    I hate Labour, Liberals and the Tories. They are all total wankers and can all bugger off as far as I am concerned. I couldn’t give a continental for the continentals either. I’m not in the least bit politically minded and have absolutely zero allegiance to any of them. These are my personal views. Unlike yourself, whom obviously carries political support, regardless of the consequences and wanton miscalculative actions. Yes, we differ in that respect to an immense degree.
    I do give you facts. Khan’s statement was fact. Gove’s 2 statements – I checked that one myself, Abbots was, Pakistan, too. As were events in Iran and Indonesia.
    You keep telling us what you deplore, what you want. How about the today and the reality of today? That’s the issue, not a list of the nice to have’s. The nice to have’s are a hell of a long way off given the circumstances of today. And I really can’t fathom why you keep going there. Maybe it’s your comfort blanket in your mind away from all this serious reality stuff. But really, there’s a time and a place and this ain’t it – not today anyway. You ask an open question on what people think about Brexit then proceed to repeatedly list your wants list of nice to have’s, time and again and repeatedly, as if your readers just might not have got it first time around. Why?

    I also couldn’t give a stuff from Remain or Brexit’s political conjecture – I don’t buy into most of their agendas. But I am delighted at last to have the opportunity to get the hell out of there. It’s been too long-a-comin’ in my opinion. That’s a personal opinion as opposed to public information.
    I leave the anecdotes to you, such as your son currently enjoying London. We all did when we first went there. I enjoyed most places upon my first visit too, but I wouldn’t necessarily rush back to work or live today. With London I would definitely not. There are much better places to be.
    I had to laugh at your recent conjecture about facebook and twitter and all and then on your very next post you went on to describe your day out meeting the family relatives and all. As exactly as one would read on Facebook. I don’t think that actually occurred to you!

    I lived in a few places too, Opher. In order, off the top of my head, Glasgow, London, Manchester, West Berlin, Liverpool, Birmingham, Newcastle, Edinburgh, London again, Hong Kong, Jakarta, Bombay (Mumbai), Nairobi, Dallas, Jakarta again, Dubai, St Lucia, Maldives, Singapore, Seychelles, Dubai again, Cyprus and a couple of places off the beaten track in UK, Chester-Lee-Street and Gleneagles. Plus all my holiday trips all over Asia, Australia, USA, Europe. Many week long company conferences/work shops in cities far and wide. I used to have to get 48 page passports due all the work permit stamps and visas. But what about it except some experience of how others live their lives or in some cases not allowed to live their lives. It was my own staff telling me of their troubles mostly as opposed to me going out to find out for myself. I intentionally did not do that but in due course of going about my own business stuff sometimes hits you right in the face and you can’t miss it. I’m no Lord of All That Is True, not by a long shot, but I have definitely seen stuff first hand that would make the average man poop himself. You know the word Amok, that’s an Indonesian word that we took on board to describe exactly what it means.
    I once watched 95 BMW & Mercedes cars being intentionally smashed to bits, torched and systematically exploding in a car park in Jakarta. At first I thought it was a terrorist attack, but no, just some disgruntled teenagers who didn’t have tickets to get into a Metallica concert. I was watching drink in hand from the 31st floor directly across the road. That is an anecdote. Another would be the man that was CEO of company doing a new opening in the international sector of Lagos, Nigeria, who I’d met and he was looking for a no.2. He had sacked some Muslim guy for theft and the guy turned up later in his offices and shot him in the head. I was trying to contact him to tell him that I wasn’t interested and got an email from his son with the sad news. That is an anecdote.

    I sell my knowledge as facts? Actually they are facts that I happen to know about. I read stuff that I don’t think most people bother to read. I like the small print stuff that newspapers or the media don’t touch. I like the underground press, but you have to be in the know of where to find it and how to get there. I would refrain from repeating 95% of it as it may give some folks the utter shivers. And I don’t mean anything of the sort that the now very popular ex-BBC sports commentator (can never remember his name) comes out with such as the Royal family being reptiles etc. Nothing like that. But info such as who was seen talking to who, leaked emails and memos and the likes, the stuff that they want to kill the blonde haired guy now languishing in some embassy (forgotten his name too) connected to Wikipedia, for bringing to the public’s attention.
    I got a taste for all that with my first job in Jarkata, that also as a secondary entity housed very secret and private meeting points for all the world’s top bankers and Ambassadors. Nobody knew from the world press who was meeting who. It was a fantastic place, also home to Asia’s largest business library. We even had a custom built cinema/conference auditorium for 100 delegates. Meeting rooms with huge beautiful hand carved circular tables. Phenomenal opulence all round.
    My second job in Jakarta was with all the top boys in south-east Asia’s mining industries. All of them from diamonds, other precious stones, oil, minerals to forestry. These are the some of the same people that took the Exon geologist who had made claims of an oil site and they then spent $90 billion in exploration of sfa, as his claims turned out to be bogus, up in a helicopter and threw him out of it over the site. Charming fellows. Very good payers, though.

    As I said check out the recent Pew Research Centres reports. Most people haven’t a clue who they are or what they do.

    No, I think Merkel has realised that she has made one of the biggest mistakes of modern times.
    Her closest European allies, Austria and Switzerland want nothing more to do with her or her problems and have slammed their gates firmly shut. Says it all really.
    Putin watches I’m sure, making plans for his own territory. He’s already done the easy target with the LGBT lot and the somewhat more complex Muslim issue may well be on his target list too. That would not surprise me in the least. But, he can’t move a foot wrong in Europe as China would not tolerate an inch of that. I’ve said this before but you just keep ignoring it.

    1. Well thanks for putting it up again.
      Interesting anecdotes.
      Being an idealist I do harp on about a vision of a future. That is how I think. I don’t share your extreme pessimism of today. There are lots of things wrong and we have to sort them out. Highlighting them and putting pressure on is all we can do.
      As you are opposed to all politics (The SNP weren’t in your list – was that an omission?) I can’t see you have any way forward. You seem to find the world so terrible you want to withdraw into isolation from it.
      I’m cynical about most parties but still see that some are far worse than others and the effect of a Tory government is always terrible for public services and the poor. But then you do not have a high opinion of public servants if I remember correctly.
      You want out of Europe and I can see why. There are a lot of things about it I dislike. I just don’t think that fragmenting and putting a right-wing government in is going to appease all your concerns.
      When I say about ‘facts’ what I mean is that you cannot reduce a person like Khan or whoever, down to one single ‘fact’. Things are much more complex than that. I’d like to know where the ‘facts’ came from, if they are true, what context they were in and a lot more besides, before I accept them as facts. I’ve seen first-hand far too much spin, lies and deliberate undermining to believe a fraction of what I read.
      I think Putin has further designs on Europe following the Ukraine and Crimea. He is not content. He wants all the USSR back.

      1. The SNP? Opher, there’s not an iota morsel of space in my brain to give these people a 2nd thought. I treat them as if they don’t exist, as they make not one jot of difference to my life. I have no regard for politics and never has it been anything of a feature of personal interest. It makes not a jot of difference to my life. I need the state for nothing, except nowadays I see a specialist every few months at hospital. But I paid my way and some with all that already. I had 10 days off sick in 30 years. Never have I been a burden to the state, except once when I left a job to go to another only to be informed that I would have to wait a while as there was a huge strike (Mumbai). I returned to UK and signed on for 2 months and left for the job upon receiving the OK immediately.
        My personal experience in dealing with public servants has been mixed. Some talk a good story yet follow up with zilch.
        The health and safety people in general were a nonentity.
        They couldn’t touch operations of our quality as we were streets ahead. Grease traps all over the cooking area floors, coloured chopping boards for individual use for raw or cooked, cold and fish etc. All the safety signage everywhere, training records concisely detailed. Fire alarm systems that cost hundreds of thousands of pounds with ceiling water jet systems. A multitude of fire apparatus etc. Safety shoes, eyes protection, overall suits, you name it, we used it.
        Till system pricing that always matched exactly what was displayed ie. bar tariffs. They always hoped to catch us out on that as it is a common error. No chance.
        They’d walk in, find nothing, then send in a report on something they hadn’t even looked at. Such as a “dirty” oven, an oven that incidentally was being used at the time of their visit and had not been inspected. So, yes, I have little time for such. Over paid and under worked in my opinion.

        What do you mean by putting in a “right-wing” government?
        Do you know what a right-wing government actually is? We don’t have anything like as such here in UK. Not ever close.

        Explain, therefore, what you believe the “context” to be with such a remark from Khan? Did you miss that one when it happened? I think so. I’m quite certain that you are absolutely able to press a couple of buttons and find all the info one would need on this. Seriously, you’re barking up the wrong tree here with me on this. The guy is obviously got some loose canon issues. But what do I care, not a jot as he makes no difference to me what he says or does. I simply conveyed his words and you seem to harbour irrefutible problems with such. I can’t help you there.

        The question of whether we stay in Europe or not in terms of economic policy is difficult. There are risks by not being within. However, given our already excellent trade agreements in place and working with USA, China, India, Japan etc., I think it is foolhardy to imagine that they would disappear overnight. It’s up to us to continue to produce top quality goods and I can see no reason for not being able to continue to do so. The EU can have no effect towards this.
        We seem to suffer from a great deal of confusion as to how trade actually works within the EU. I think people imagine that there’s a room full of people giving the OK on every deal made by every company. It is not at all anything like such. You or I if we wanted could fly into Spain and negotiate our price with the farmer for his grapes. There are no fixed prices with fresh produce, which make up a huge percentage of our imported expenditure. Neither are there ever any guarantees of continuity of produce either, as you well know, due to harvesting/ weather differentials. The general public have not the remotest clue how the food trade business works and I can’t quite see why we even need so many EU people involved. Even back in the 80’s, in London, we were flying Kobi beef directly to us from Japan.
        Anybody can buy anything from anywhere at any time. Except banned trade counties, North Korea being one of just a handful.
        People is the business of selling could not give a jot for politics. All EU trade policy does is ensure and in most cases quite unnecessarily, that health and safety measures with transportation are upheld. As if the seller is going to throw his 10 tons of bananas into a steaming hot plane’s hold and expect to get paid from the other end in the first place. It’s all basically scaremongering total rubbish. The administration has in the main always been in place concerning load weights, too. The only people that can really only get away with anything other are those involved in the black market or illegal trades, where private haulage transport is required to cover their tracks. Most enterprises doing good trade could not be further removed from such shenanigans.

        There exists zero evidence to suggest why Putin would want to bring some former Soviet territories back into his fold. Why would he want to have to pay for their upkeep? He is certainly not short of any labour force.
        I certainly have not read anything anywhere that suggests such either. He is in the very same place as the rest of us, with his own people recent targets of an extremism plane attack.
        What he may or not want is unknown, but what is certain are his signed agreements on unilateral issues. If he wants to remain as a recognised world leader he has to behave as expected. If he so chooses to commandeer back another country what would the consequences be for him? Not only has he got China bristling, but who would do any trade with him? If he can’t trade, then what? Are his government so inept that they couldn’t take him out at any given time?
        There must be a mountain of Russian politicians who would not wish to return to cold war conditions.
        So in my view this is all simply unfounded scaremongering with absolutely nothing in evidence to support it.

      2. Andrew – I only mentioned SNP because you missed them out in your list.
        Yes I do know what A right-wing government is and Gove and Johnson etc are a lurch towards it. I also know what that means for public services, taxation and privatisation and so do you.
        No I didn’t hear the Khan remark. I will check it out.
        The economic situation will be seen in light of future events. I think that everything I have heard is not at all good. You are more confident than me by a long chalk.
        Putin with Crimea, Ukraine and Georgia – what next? I’m not complacent.

  9. Interesting to see Lord Guthrie change his mind about Remain and has switched over to Brexit, for reasons of the impending possibility of the creation of a European army. Despite UK’s powers of veto, as has been addressed by Cameron as a no, it seems LG, thinks any such force would be in direct conflict with existing NATO forces.
    However, it also depends upon exactly which troops are used in NATO. I recall the Dutch contingent standing doing absolutely nothing during the decimation of Sarajevo. They are obviously unfit for purpose and many other Euro nations army contributions are a joke.

    It’s all becoming somewhat of a completely different deal considering the EU was formed on the basis of fair trade exchange and the deployment of labour to wherever required.
    That said, the premise of exchange was based on the Euro Capitalism concept that has somewhat failed because of policy dictating “each according to their needs and each according to their ability”.

    It seems the agenda is turning 180, if it is considered a necessary entity to form an entire army and some major questions arise.
    Why is there a considered need for such an army?
    What is at the heart of such an agenda?
    To what extent if any would countries existing armies be reduced?
    Where are such forces going to be recruited from?
    Would this also include army management of border controls?
    Would countries such as Hungary, who refuse to take in any Syrian immigrants be forced to do so?
    What happens if more of the north African countries suffer from extremist Islamic tyranny, whereby Algeria and Tunisia are currently borderline cases for such potential?
    Will their escapees also be swept into the confines of Europe?
    Etc.

    If USA with it’s almost $20 Trillion debt with companies leaving in their droves to seek higher profits elsewhere and Japan with its massive deficit can hang on, this makes UK’s potential venture on it’s own look not too difficult.
    Definitely time to Leave.

      1. I really don’t think LG is ignoring anything! He had signed a declaration of support for Remain back in February, but has obviously become somewhat concerned over this issue which is one hell of a step in the wrong direction.
        I also believe that he just may know what he is talking about considering he used to be chief of UK’s armed forces.

      2. Everyone has their own agenda and reasons. A European Army seems a good idea to me. But I can see why it wouldn’t to him.

      3. In fact I’m not just in favour of a Eurpean army – I want A UN army with real teeth that could get stuck into all the regimes causing problems around the world – sort a universal human rights and start putting an end to war, inequality and poverty. I want a global approach to the environment and fundamentalism.

  11. That is a most dangerous concept! Not only does it negate NATO, but please consider the actually quantity of regimes that would/could be considered for such applicable action. We could end up with endless mega-wars all over the world. Just Africa for instance, a boiling cauldron of tyranny and oppression that to date has proved beyond all attempts to control. It really doesn’t bear thinking about!
    You and Tony Blair and George Bush Jnr. would get on like a house on fire.
    Kill `em all, roll `em over, they’re done!
    Not for me, count me out.

    1. No – don’t put me in that camp. I have never been a warmonger! Read my blog!
      It depends how it is done. I’m for unity and cooperation. I want a global army. Much better. (There are risks I do concede – depends how it’s done!)

      1. Well, I can’t be the only one to perhaps suggest that you have recently taken a 180 on a number of view points as previously expressed. I’m beginning to wonder if you are just arguing for arguments sake or perhaps not feeling well?
        Whatever, you are all over the place.

        We (or at least I had thought) are on the subject of a European army – not a global one.

        Please consider the history of REAL right-wing extremism that exist within Germany, Italy, Spain and the Communist mentality of many of those from the former USSR regime.
        This is why we in UK, sit where we sit. We look at these people saying WTF!

        Who gets to run such an army? Merkel? Good grief, what an abhorrent thought – isn’t it?

        I’m sorry Opher, but everything tells me that this is an extremely bad idea.

      2. No I don’t think I do 180s on things too often. I’ve always been for a strong UN with teeth.
        As for a European force. I’ve no strong feelings. It depended how it’s done and what it is used for. It doesn’t have to undermine or interfere with NATO (A USA controlled armed force that we have very little say in).
        Merkel doesn’t run the EU. It’s a partnership of countries. Sounds good to me. I don’t like isolationism. I like cooperation and unity.
        Right-wing extremism is not confined to the continent – we’ve come close too. I’ve read about Cable Street and seen the National Front and British Movement up close a few times.
        I don’t wipe any comments so you can read what anybody else thinks.

  12. Well why are quite happy about the prospect of another massive army in Europe? That goes against the grain of a lot of your conjecture. And you call me right-wing!
    I freakin’ hate the very idea of it. The last thing we need is another army.
    I would not be happy to let these same people run such a thing given their recent decision making.
    Your take on NATO is not that simple. I suggest you have a sortie into the inner machinations of NATO. Yes, USA are certainly involved but by no means control it. It’s a weird scene inside the goldmine, to say the least. I’ll let you find out for yourself on that.
    Besides, anything I say you slam back as per recently. Then 2 or 3 posts later you admit to not actually having heard about it. Which kinda stifles any discussion!
    I really wish you’d at least google before opening your mouth at times.

    If you like cooperation and unity, why the hell did Merkel not ask the rest of Europe if it’s OK that one million people trample from Greece all the way to Germany? Why didn’t she ask her own people if it’s OK that one million people just arrive on their doorstep?
    So that doesn’t wash, does it.
    What you want and kike are in effect 180. Again.

    We’ve all seen the NF and BM. What about them? A few thousand skin-heads make not a jot of difference to anybody unless one is a Millwall FC supporter. I really don’t think anybody in their right mind gives them the time of day. They worry me not. Silly wee boys shouting hate is all they are and all they ever will be.

    I never suggested you did wipe any comments. Who claimed you were?

    1. If we have to have armies – and I suppose we do – I don’t see why it shouldn’t be a joint one. I don’t think we have the cash to maintain anything of great worth. We’ve been running ours down for a long time. Cooperation and unity seem a good way forward – combine resources for greater strength and safety. I don’t have your fears of the incompetence of European forces.
      I not sure what you are referring to in terms of me slamming back at you?
      I’ve never said I like what has happened in Europe or Merkel’s decisions. I don’t. I think Europe is very wasteful and overly bureaucratic. I think Merkel, fior whatever reason, made a big mistake. I think the response to the immigration crisis has been slow and crap. There are loads of things about Europe that I really dislike, despise and abhor. It is merely that it is better than the alternative. Fragmentation and isolation is a retrograde step. I’ve never said Europe is Hunky Dory. It needs reforming. But I don’t see anything that can’t be overhauled and made to work. Britain in and working to put it right is much better than Britain out, subject to what they decide with no say, and a sad little country on the outskirts with a dwindling economy and no power.
      Europe will shit on us and so will the USA. The money is already draining out. The pound is wobbling. We’ll see.
      The right wing of the Tories is not too dissimilar to the NF and BM. They are just as xenophobic and patriotic. I don’t give a shit for nationalism, patriotism, establishment, God, King and country or race. It stands for all that is wrong with the country in my eyes. I judge people by their value. Biologically I don’t think any race is superior. Black, brown, yellow, Italian, Spanish, Brazillian or French, or German. We’re a mongrel race. We absorb it all. All we have are different cultures, upbringings and education. The sooner we move to a global government the better. That is the future – if we have one!
      Tolerance, equality and compassion, respect, responsibility and empathy – that’s what I tried to instil in the kids in my school. It created a very pleasant, friendly community where all were welcome and supported.

      1. We have been running ours down at home, but bear in mind we have thousands returning from Germany, over a 6 year period 2014-20.
        Army recruitment ebbs and flows and always has.
        Ground troop numbers are also to some extent influenced by advances in weapons. Our air power has never been so high-tech.
        Do you, have you ever read Jane’s Defence Weekly magazine? I’ve subscribed for about 20 years.
        It’s not exactly the sort of thing found in our newspapers or evening news. But the weapons speak for themselves.
        2 men are worth a multitude of platoons.

        Lucky for you, you haven’t had a business in a Euro economy. I did from 2009-14.
        It ain’t good and the fluctuations against the dollar and pound are really not that funny. I could lose 20 cents in the pound from the start of a month to the end. Importing costs are quite difficult to manage. It was also very difficult to simply slap that 20c onto to the purchase price. It would have to be more, to cover VAT at 20%, business tax then personal tax. It is a very erratic currency governed by all sorts of reasons. Greece’s misdemeanors cost a lost of people dearly. Cyprus’s economy problems entailed the government to simply remove E5K, from my business bank account to cover their banking losses – connected to Greece, of course. Cash movement controls were limited to E3K. So the banks could screw you silly on the transfer fees both ends and of course their lousy exchange rates.
        It’s a quagmire of instability.
        My business electricity costs escalated by double within one year. 80 businesses were dropping out every week.
        I had removed most of my personal money to Dubai, but had to keep at least E70K in my business as it was costing me E60K to import the containers of stuff required.
        Anybody and everybody with over E50K in any kind of account were hit for the 5K. That’s Europe for you.
        Just as an anecdote – the only people that knew of this plan were senior bankers and government. One major bank’s President’s wife was caught at the airport with E3 million in cash strapped all over her. Got 4 years for it and lost the cash.

        Khan. You didn’t want to believe me. You went on to suggest there were “context” issues without actually knowing of the facts, right?

        If the right-wing were indeed as xenophobic as you make claim, is seems odd to me that they don’t seem to be behaving as such. I don’t see plane loads of people all being sent back to wherever. I don’t see these large groups of screaming banshee Islamics being rounded up and extradited. It’s actions that count, not a few choice words or perception of what some people may or may not think.
        You’re being somewhat hysterical on this issue.

        If you can’t stand up for your own country, then that’s your problem. But why is it you want certain people to leave our shores if you are so open minded? You can’t have it both ways. One minute your banging on about how dare they upset our lifestyle then the next saying I care not for patriotism?

        I understand why and what you think biologically but if you think for one second that your little tiny school represents the world? For crying out loud! You know better than that.
        Even the Islamics haven’t come up with anything since 1100.
        Their peoples have won one and a half Nobel Peace prizes.
        They represent a quarter of the world.
        Why have you no pride in your first world countries achievements and why do you want to dump it in with all the rest? That’s an unfathomable concept.
        You have the time, so why not second yourself down in Sudan for 6 months and see how much tolerance and respect you receive.
        Your shouting at your own shadow.

        I quite like, in fact love my life as it is. I can’t see myself ever with open arms towards at least 4 billion knuckle draggers in this world. I don’t want them anywhere near me.

      2. Sounds like a big dose of stability would do a world of good for business.

        Oh it was Khan. Can’t help you there. I’d have to read the comment, see the source, look at the context and such before having an opinion. Haven’t had time yet. That’s what I said before, by the way. I need to read it in context before I can make a judgement. There may be context issues; there may not.

        I just saw the Brexit poster of the Syrian refugees (almost identical to the Nazi one from the 1930s). If that’s not xenophobic or racist enough for you what is? The right-wing are not in power yet. Give ’em chance. So where are all these ‘large groups of screaming banshee Islamics’? Don’t you think that might just be a tad over the top? A tiny bit hysterical?

        No you are confusing patriotism and nationalism with culture. I think we have far too many immigrants coming over. We have a culture that I value. It takes time to integrate people and it takes a strategy. Too many too quick with no clear planning. It threatens our culture. Plus I don’t like Muslim intolerance. I’m quite happy to live with Christians Muslims and Hindus, Jews, Syrians and Africans or whatever colour – just as long as they are prepared to assimilate into our culture while still valuing their own. As far as I’m concerned that means things like learning English, giving up Sharia law, not wearing burqas.

        My little school doesn’t represent the world anymore than your hotels. It’s culture was one that would create harmony and peace anywhere and everywhere if it was adopted. My kids were brought up to think, respect, tolerate and show compassion. All children should be. Get them out of the church schools and madrassas – out of the hatred and indoctrination and into something like my school. Wouldn’t go far wrong.

        I agree that Islam has stultified invention and imagination in science and technology as well as other areas – in exactly the same way that Judaism and Christianity did in the past. Fortunately we had an enlightenment and were released from all that resulting in a blossoming of science. We’re a few hundred years ahead. It’s very sad. They were the centre of civilisation, learning and culture – inventing writing and maths. All brought to a juddering halt. They need an enlightenment and the separation of religion from state. That’s the only way forward.
        I don’t want to live in a backward country. I want to raise all countries up and free people from the shackles of superstition. Try reading my blog. That’s what it says.

        I feel sad that you have such a low opinion of most of humanity, apart from the Scots who you think are better than the res, everywhere I’ve been I’ve met pleasant welcoming people who were genuinely open and friendly. I’ve been in the poor areas and met all sorts. I’ve not been killed once. When I’ve been in trouble someone has always stopped to help. Guess I’ve been lucky.
        My view is that there are a small minority of unpleasant types – mentally ill or a product of brain-washing or bad experience. They need help.
        We all have a nasty, cruel side and an altruistic pleasant side. We need to develop the good side.
        Your world seems full of hatred and distrust. Mine isn’t. I just despair at the stupidity and the fact that we keep allowing ourselves to be ruled and led by psychopaths.

  13. Sorry to but in but I have a commissioned painting of Cable Street that you mentioned Opher. I will let you get back to your debates.

    1. That sounds interesting, Anna. A real turning point against the rise of fascism in Britain. I’d be interested to see that.

      1. It was indeed, David used to say he saw The Blackshirts, so scary. I will get Jonathan to take a pic for you, remind me or I will forget. It is one of Rod’s I purchased.

  14. Careful there Anna, you’ll have Opher reminiscing that he saw Mosely in action!

    2. No. Too young for that Andrew. My Dad did though. He quite liked the fascists. He thought they brought order. He was a racist and very xenophobic. The irony was that he went to fight the fascists in Italy and was taken in by an Italian family and loved them and Italian culture. Strange world. It didn’t stop him being racist though.

  15. I haven’t seen any posters. I doubt I’d even notice them either.

    So you claim to have no awareness of these crazy Islamic groups on the streets?
    Where have you been, living under a stone or something?
    You will see them on youtube filmed in London. Filmed by people’s iPhones.
    Some of it is pretty heavy. There’s some nasty characters within their ranks.
    There’s film from all over France and Germany, too.
    They don’t put this on TV. It’s not good and quite obviously not faked.
    I saw them for myself in person in Hamburg. Thousands of them.
    I mentioned this a few weeks ago, remember?

    What are you talking about with assimilating into our culture while still valuing their own – yet giving up Sharia Law and the burqas!!!???
    What are you saying Opher? That IS their culture. Their ONLY culture. Where they actually live is irrelevant – it’s all Allah’s land in their eyes. Not ours. Why can’t you get your head around this?
    Why are they shouting “get out of our country” to indigenous Londoners?
    Don’t you get it? That is Islam at work. That is the agenda. A world takeover with Islam to the fore.
    Nothing will stand in their way.
    They now have I really don’t know how many Mosques, Islamic schools, Islamic study colleges,
    Islamic residential conference centres, Islamic community centres, Islamic community “guidance” officers.
    They impose Sharia Law without any regard to having been told not to.
    They take their 4 wives and produce children and qualify for all the housing needs and family allowance payments.
    Entire areas are slowly filled only with Islamics, they have Islamic MP’s, Lawers, Accountants – they will not touch our legal or accountancy companies whatsoever as that is against Islamic regulation. Relationship councilors, Islamic Social Workers whom only work with Islamics, Islamic clothes shops, food shops, Islamic banks, Islamic money exchanges, Islamic travel bureaus, Islamic TV stations, Radio stations, etc., etc.,

    And you talk about assimilation into our culture? Are you you full shilling here?
    Are you entirely blind to all this? That’s impossible, surely?

    Prove to me just once where and when I have ever said that I thought “the Scots were better than the rest of us”. WTF are you on about here?
    That’s a complete fabrication of your own mind and a very cheap piece of shit shot.
    So typically Mr Middle England mentality. These little squirrels for men that wear Argyle patterned cardigans and talk down Scotland. Like we didn’t notice their silly looking cardigan!
    Gawd, have I met them and there are no shortage of such mealy-mouthed tossers.
    Fair enough, there’s been a hell of lot of mothers of invention coming from here. And a shed load of seriously talented people in all walks of life all through history, but man, you never saw such words written by me here. Not ever.

    I think it’s a bit of myth that story about Maths etc coming from the Islamics.
    That was all before Muhammad’s time.
    And I really don’t need the history lesson on the enlightenment. They’ll be nothing you can tell me about history. I put some other guy right about some history facts just a little earlier today, who was trying to tell me a load of guff about the 9th Crusade. I crucified him.
    You know I know about history as I’ve had to correct you on certain matters often enough. But I never get a single word of thanks, just a “I’ll have to review my thoughts on that”.
    I could even tell you the details of each every time that I’ve done so too, but I’ll spare you the embarrassment for the 2nd time, Mr Top IQ 1%. LOL.

    I’ve nearly forgotten the last psychopath we had ruling us, Tony Blair.
    But what do you suggest we do about the 1.5 billion?
    How do we extinguish Allah?
    Are they going to listen?
    Would you put your own money on it?

    1. I’m sure there are some examples but I’ve never seen it and I’ve been around in a lot of places in this country and abroad.
      I remember you fobbing off the violence of the British Movement, National Front and Combat 18, which I saw first-hand, as a bunch of nutters of little consequence.
      I think you are building a minority thing from a bunch of religious nutters into too big a thing. Perhaps your fear of Islam is out of proportion to the real risk.
      I mean – get real –
      There isn’t going to be a European army
      Turkey are not joining the EU and likely never will
      We will never be ruled by a small minority of religious nutters
      The EU does run on democracy
      I think you are allowing your fears to run away with you. There’s a lot of fear-mongering around. These are scare stories with no foundation.
      All those things you highlight need addressing. They are easily done. The question you should be asking is why aren’t they being addressed.
      It’s the attitude that comes across Andrew – the racism – ragheads – the shrill tone that you are correct because you have gathered some facts together, the antagonistic put-downs, the belligerence, the explosions as when I put out my story about the Glaswegian family (based on 100% true observation) and was lambasted for negative stereotyping of Scots when you specialise in negative stereotyping of Muslims (all crazed nutters intent on world domination). Look at the tone of what you write and how you write. What comes across between the words?
      What comes across to me is someone who has had some bad experiences with Muslims who is exaggerating threat and fear and gathering information to back up your case.
      I too have concerns. Things need dealing with but it needs to be kept in proportion and not in this hysterical rant.
      You even question the whole picture of that region. It is firmly established that civilisation started there – agriculture, writing, science and maths. Islam brought it to a grinding halt but give them credit where its due. But then there’s nothing I can tell you about history, music, business, politics, religion or anything – you could write War and Peace on it all.
      You keep correcting me with your opinions most of which I simply don’t agree with. But that’s OK we’re both entitled to have different views on things. That’s healthy. We might even both be wrong.
      Your tone of brash arrogance and steamrollering does not improve your argument; it merely caused an antagonistic response.

  16. That”s because you chose to read it that way, unfortunately. There’s a lot of humour involved but you have too slight a sense to pick up on that often enough. You have to remember that I’m from Glasgow, Opher. Half of what I say is sarcasm, tongue in cheek and I’ll ask a question that is absolutely rhetorical. The meaning exists, but the force of the words possess nothing like the severity that you perceive. I can’t be speaking in tongues and you are certainly not an automatron. It can go 2 ways, either as written as a legally binding document or as a written conversation. I must prefer the latter.
    Please try and imagine you’re in the pub holding up the bar counter and this will serve you well.
    I do ask probing questions of many things, not that I possess the answer, but the sheer fact that such an anomaly exists raises a question by itself. I may well be asking a question to which no answer readily exists and I am well aware of this.
    I simply do not think in terms of left and right and I have absolutely no responsibility towards how any subject matter may indeed be viewed. But it is ridiculous to suggest that I do harbour extremist right-wing views. I sit on the fence, watching, commenting, shaking my head at the total crap that continuously springs out of nowhere for one reason or another. They are not of my making and if I am not allowed to comment without being branded as a “you must be one of this or that” then all powers of discussion have been eliminated due to the power of suggestion and this nonsensical and extremely stifling bad habit of having to put everything into a preconceived tagged and labelled box.
    How did we get to that sort of situation? It’s almost as if the listener or unwilling listener wants to stop everything and anything of any subject depth right dead in it’s tracks in order for them to “recognise” the subject matter at hand. All the strands must be rolled up into the tightest of balls before they can be mentally perceived and transgressed into any form of conjecture firstly, before the actual subject matter itself. It’s almost as if we compute information in tiny little bits, all fragmented and whatever stands out the most luminous becomes the target for our perceived understanding. We do suffer from an extremely poor “mental hearing” process.
    I use the term “we” liberally, without reference to myself as I believe that I recognise the inherent faults that have manifested themselves through our modern day bad habits of instant response, not enough consideration and the need to quantify/pigeon hole information as received.
    It’s a strange anomaly where the more we converse the quicker we are to pigeon hole.
    Yet we can listen to music for example and be absolutely prepared to accept that there exist a multiplicity of genres. Why? Simply because we compute musical information in a different way to which we treat the written word. We have become so bloody lazy with our language communication and have injected a plethora of easy handles to save us the bother to even think about our next sentence. Hence, why Shakespeare is still so widely regarded by those that desire the continued appreciation for the art of the spoken or indeed written word.
    I don’t recall ever seeing such poorly construed, poorly written and trite conjecture such as “you’re just a right-wing extremist bigot” within the works of Shakespeare.
    That said….

    I never had any bad personal experiences with any Muslims anywhere. Quite the contrary actually and it is fowl of you to suggest otherwise.
    But I’m well aware of how their system works for them. They are strangled by this indoctrination and simply have no choice in the matter. Can you imagine being an 18 year and hey-ho, one day introduced to your “wife”!

    It’s everything to do with Islam that I have utter contempt for. I’m not scared per say, but I very much dislike the extent of its rapid growth within our confines.
    I’m extremely unhappy that they can bring the whole shaboogle with them and carry on as normal. I’m not referring to any particular individual but those whose mission statement is to make this happen and they are very successful with their works in this area. In order to get to the level of ingratiation that they have so far achieved has indeed taken a great deal of planning and logistical manipulation. It puts us on the backfoot somewhat. By the time we have noticed one thing there is another around the corner, so to speak.
    It is absolutely themselves that are wholly responsible for such divisive opinion by the sheer nature of their actions and social manifesto.
    I’m simply giving an account of my observations. An observation is not necessarily a belief and not by a long shot actually. But you continuously for reasons of your own volition perceive this to be the case. Never look for a job with the MI5, Opher, you wouldn’t get further than the M25, never mind its front door.
    You never came back to me on my observations that I never see them in restaurants, cinemas, musical concerts or the countryside. And that is quite obviously that you indeed know this to be the case, too. But any such commentary surely does merit some sort of response commentary be it on the contrary or not. I believe this to be quite an important indicator of our hopes of successful integration and I believe this factor has in indeed in the most part completely failed.
    I certainly don’t “fear” them one bit whatsoever, but I fail to understand why so many feel the need to shut themselves off from us, when in fact we do offer them all the freedoms that they perhaps had not enjoyed in a previous location.
    Are we that disgusting to them (as many are prone to claim) simply because we enjoy a bacon sarnie of a Sunday morning?

    Indeed, right wing BM boot boys are inconsequential nutters.
    What they are however not doing is setting up numerous, dispersed, country wide, very organised Islamic centres. That was my point. I can see a difference there.

    I questioned the need of a European army. I didn’t say it would happen. But why are they planning such or even to the point of discussion where our former chief of UK’s armed forces objects so strongly to such a concept that he has taken a 180 on his allegiance to the EU.
    I think some questions arise with this and perhaps you should give that a little more thought other than “it will not happen”. Of course, you may be privy to more information than that of Lord Guthrie. I would be most impressed were this the case.

    Why therefore, is so much money being poured into Turkey to secure their readiness to compete in the EU?
    If Turkey has no chance of joining then why is money going there way?
    Or are you refuting that this is actually happening?
    That is a strange anomaly, isn’t it?
    I was under the impression that the EU has a foreign aid policy, however, this has not been classified as such, at least to date.
    If you do indeed have the answers to this question, I would like to read them.

    Obviously I am asking why aren’t they being addressed, by the sheer nature of bringing up the question in the first place! Good grief! I’m not sitting in bloody Brussels, am I? How the hell would I know what is being addressed or not?
    I simply conveyed a part of agenda that I think is perhaps one step too far. Considering it is a right up to date news worthy item that was all over the news 2 days ago. Switch on your Radio/TV once in a while and catch up for goodness sake.
    Or was my comment news to you, again?
    Surely you can do your Opher’s world stuff at the same time as having Radio 4 on in the background? It’s on all day in my kitchen and the loo and I’ll catch bits and pieces on any given visit to said room. It’s amazing the number of snippets than can be garnered in such a short time.
    Perhaps you should give that a go.

    Concerning “rag heads”. Boy, you so obviously have never been near the Middle East, have you?
    You have not a jot of a clue of what you have just said there. Not the slightest semblance of an iota, actually. Ask any major dude and they will tell you exactly the same thing and some.
    It wasn’t myself that coined this phrase and I simply conveyed it as a good example as to the realities. Opher, I worked in Dubai twice. No foreign company or person owns anything there in terms of business premises. Homes and apartments, yes, but that is it. They rent a tent. There are a multiplicity of Sheiks ( about 14 of them, I believe) whom own all and sundry. They always came across as fairly affable guys and some really smart cookies among them, too. However, their henchmen and those in authority are an entirely different animal. And you may not believe the depths that these people go to with their thousands of strategically placed spies that whose sole purpose in life is to look, listen and learn. They may well indeed be one’s personal PA. One would not know and never would. I’m not talking about guys that go over there to sell a bit of stationary or perhaps work at an oil well. I’m talking about people who are in the business of employing other Muslims. I had the same guy show up to the same restaurants and same nighttime venues as I did for 3 months until my work permit visa stamps were officiated. I dined out at a different restaurant in a different city location every night because the place that I was doing the pre-opening project work for was still in the process of construction.
    Perhaps now you get the big picture.
    It’s sad really that you persist in diving in with naive conjecture without understanding the reality of a situation.
    I wish you had the guts to actually ask the occasional question yourself sometimes.
    But I guess you don’t allow yourself to do such as you perceive this to be a weakness and a chink to your armory of being in possession of an A1 1% IQ.
    You would have made a terrible businessman and perhaps starved within 3 months of any attempts to be such.

    I wasn’t able to really take on board your story of the Glaswegian family, simply because the language expressed by such individuals is usually somewhat more of a shade of blue.
    Therefore, in my opinion it lacked integrity.
    I was correct of course in pointing out to you that they very well most probably were of Irish decent, therefore, do not qualify per say, as fully fledged Glaswegians.
    You seem to also forgotten this rather important detail that all things considered actually does determine whether one is or not indeed Glaswegian.

    Where and when did I ever state that all Muslims are crazed individuals?
    I simply have not.
    Some undoubtedly are. But to suggest I stated otherwise is spurious, contrived and actually down right lies.
    You do possess a fairly nasty habit of finger pointing on terms that are way out of context of the subject matter at hand. I’ll put that down to inherent “wee man syndrome”. A personality trait of which you have simply no control over. I can understand that, however, unpleasant it may be to be on the receiving end of it. But I don’t judge and am a very good forgiver.

    Perhaps the ancient Greeks may have had something to do with mathematics.
    Perhaps those that had built Stonehenge may very well also had a grasp of such concepts, too.
    No you don’t have to indulge in history.
    I suggest you do some further reading on the Eastern Roman Empire, particularly that of the Byzantines. You may well find that a few of their ideas were commandeered and taken on as the sole property of a third party.
    I’d be only too willing to discuss it, but not on any level of a diatribe.
    But don’t ask me anything about the Spinning Jenny as I forgot all that as soon as I heard it at school as it was just SO uninteresting.
    All the history in the world and what do they chose to include in their curriculum, the bloody Spinning Jenny! Spare me such mental agony.

    Antagonism works both ways. What antagonises me are those that are too readily prone to label everything as left this and right that. There’s a huge empty space in the middle that remains unaccounted for.

    Considering we are to a degree on the subject of Europe, here is an example of European humour as told to me by a Norwegian.
    All the same, you will not be able to control yourself and will indeed no doubt shoot the messenger, branding with “right wing Fascist” etc.
    I’ll take the shot as the joke is perhaps worth it.

    A man is found lying dead in Oslo. People gather staring at this rather odd looking person.
    The Police arrive and they stare too, and prod the body with a stick.
    In due course the ambulance arrives and the medics stare and prod too, One of them even gives the body a little shake. As they pick him up, the bodies head hits the ground a little bit and gives off this kind of hollow empty vessel sound. They all stand confused and shocked.
    The body is loaded and taken to the morgue.
    At the morgue the body is lain on the examination table.
    The 2 Cadaver cutters look on slightly perplexed.
    “Well, he doesn’t look like he comes from round here”, says one.
    “No, maybe from somewhere a far” says the other.
    One picks up the ambulance medics notes and sees the comment about “hollow empty vessel sound coming from the head”.
    “Do you see this!” says one.
    “Wow, how odd” says the other.
    “We’d better take a look then” says one
    Gently and efficiently they lift the head off the table and let it drop back down a little.
    They hear this hollow empty vessel sound that really alarms and confuses them.
    “We better open this up and have a look”
    Carefully they cut the top of the head open and peer into the empty darkness.
    “Get a torch”
    They shine the torch in and see this gleaming metal looking wire stretch all the way across inside.
    “What do you think that’s for” says one
    “No idea” say the other.
    They gently touch the wire one by one.
    “It’s quite tight isn’t it?” says one
    “Not half” says the other.
    “What do you think we should do?” says one
    “Cut it” says the other.
    They get the scissors and snip the metal wire right at the middle bit.
    All of a sudden both ears fall off onto the table.
    Utterly shocked out of their wits, they both exclaim in tandem

    “Fuck me, he’s Swedish!”

    That’s you lot for today.

    1. Right Andrew – I’ll take that on board. I don’t pick up on the humour.
      I just feel that with a few changes in tone we would find a lot more common ground and valid debate than has been apparent to me from our exchanges. As I’ve said in the past I value your knowledge if it was expressed in such a belligerent and exaggerated manner with a little more humility …………… just like I do.

      1. Fine and dandy.
        Most of what I say is with a wry smile on my face.
        I can’t help but laugh at all this stupidity. These think-tank people at the heart are a nightmare.
        What they are doing is beyond me. They persistently keep moving the goal posts.
        I can’t believe where we have arrived at today.
        And you are quite right in that I have lost almost all faith in our political workings.
        I don’t mean these hard working good people from all the parties that work hard and diligently at ground source within their constituencies, but the leadership teams and their backroom people.
        No matter who we have in power they blow it.

        I cannot understand why we cannot have each and every of our schools as model examples of the best.
        Obviously the wrong people are in charge time and again.

        It must be an area thing as the young lad that I know that pops into me from school (I know his dad well, I stress!) who is actually just normal Glasgow working class, with no pretensions, is as smart as a shiny button, a really bright lad.
        He was borrowing some of my WW2 Nazi documentaries for his O level studies. And I’d spent quite some time over the preceding weeks questioning him and filling in a load of blanks that would assist his paper exam. He knew a few names but not certain of what many were actually responsible for and the methods involved etc. I felt that his teaching received was just too generalised and non-specific to allow him to fully understand how events unfolded.
        They hadn’t even mentioned German False Flags in Poland, that was the no.1 reason for the Nazi’s ability to convince the German population of a perceived threat.
        Quite why I’ll never know.
        He played his class a DVD I have of the Nazi head honchos rally in Munich 14 July 1939, (not inconsequentially the same date as the storming of the Bastille) 6 weeks before the outbreak of WW2; from the Channel 4 1993 series “Without Walls – Good Morning Mr. Hitler!”. It’s in colour and quite incredible footage and had just been discovered shortly before broadcast.
        Even his teacher knew nothing of this event.
        He passed with flying colours.
        So I’ve got another O level albeit in another name!
        A bit like how some Muslim women pass their driving test!
        Oops, that just slipped out, didn’t it? Sorry!

        Similarly with the NHS. In fairness, my experience with actually using the NHS myself these last 2 years, has been marvelous. I can’t see the failures that exist elsewhere.
        This particular hospital works like clockwork as far as I can tell. I’m also of the opinion that it’s joe public that screws stuff up by arriving late for appointments etc. That really isn’t fair at all. I’ve also witnessed some bad behavior in waiting areas that the staff are subjected to. I’ve been close to throttling several people at times. Outrageous dreadful people.

        I do despair at the ineptitude expressed towards the management of these 2 vital entities.
        We have to start screaming blue murder to get some corrective action and stop shilly-shallying and waiting for them to fix it.

        I wonder what would happen if nobody voted?
        I actually don’t know what would happen were that the case.
        Do you?

      2. Well I agree with all of that, even the driving tests.
        I have not a lot of faith in political leadership for many reasons. They are either power mad or psychotic in other ways. But I have no doubt that there are still a number of very hard-working sincere MPs who do really care in all parties. However, I do see fundamental changes when different parties get in. There is a change of emphasis and a direct effect on people. They shunt priorities and funds in different directions and it makes a difference.
        I too cannot understand why we cannot get all schools to function as well as the best. I think it is leadership vision that holds them back. Very few of the Heads I worked with in my area had a clue. I was considered a maverick and they couldn’t get their head round why I was successful.
        The frustration with the NHS and education is the wasdte of money, the bureaucracy and too much political dogma that holds it back. But I’ve had great NHS cover whenever I’ve needed it. Might not be first class private standard but I’d trust it.
        I’d love it if nobody voted. That would really throw them. They’d probably have to do something wouldn’t they?
        Roy – What if they had a war and nobody came.

  17. From what I have garnered from my friends various sons, late teenage to early 20s, as discussed at the dinner table, were a war to occur, would they go? Not at all! They’d all be off like a shot (excuse the pun) to darkest Africa or Vanuatu etc well out of it.
    Seems times have changed since 1914, when the boys said “France!, wow!, count me in Sir!”

    1. Not so subservient now. We must be doing something right! Or is it just that they value their arse a bit more? Maybe it’s the decline of religion? They’ve got more to lose.

      1. Yes, their lives!
        I wonder if had these fellows the same info we have today if they’d still have marched off. I somehow doubt it.

  18. Just to change this day after day boring subject now – did anyone watch England last night, disappointed they did not score.

    1. Yes I watched it. It was very disappointing. We should have beaten them easily. That’s two games that we should have won easily that we didn’t. I think they dominated but were too slow and methodical. They had to up the pace and be more incisive. We were far the better team.
      But hey – we’re through! I think when it’s knock-out there’s a different mentality.
      Hodgson shouldn’t have messed about so much. I can see that he was trying to rest players to keep them fresh and if we’d scored it would have paid off. But it didn’t and we’ve made it a lot harder. But it’s not the end. I’m looking forward to next week. I wonder who it will be? Portugal again?
      Looking forward to the Irish tonight. I hope they stuff Germany!

  19. Boring it maybe but perhaps the most important issue for many a year.

    Personally, I think Allee & Rooney should have been on from the start.
    It’s also tough to beat 11 defenders.
    Doesn’t matter as they’re through to the next round anyway.

    1. I thought Rooney’s distribution was sadly missed. He might have split them open. I would have tried the youngster – he’s great at wriggling through tight defenders.

  20. Andrew, I do not deny it is the most important decision we have had to make for such a long time. In all my years of Voting from age 21 to now I have never known such viciousness, arguing – it is tearing the Country apart. A murdered MP has been used by the Remain lot, utterly disgraceful. I do not want to block anyone but it just never ends. It is not worth losing a friend over, that is Opher and myself I refer to. Make your decision and discuss it by all means but why I withdrew last week from discussing this subject it became too personal hurtful remarks made, silly.

    Could not agree more with you Allee and Rooney should have been there from the start along with Harry Kane (is that how his name is spelt?). I sat on the floor watching it shouting , I love to watch football, hoping against hope England would score. Trust the Welsh. Can’t wait for next match. Northern Ireland tonight against Germany, who can beat the Germans? I’ll let you two get back to arguing. Hope both of you are ok.

    1. No friends lost here Anna. I respect your view and see why you made your decision even if I don’t agree with it.
      The Irish can beat the Germans, that’s who. They have the passion and fearlessness.

      1. I would like to see Norther Ireland win, but I like the Germans too, I fancied them from the start, Germany always seem to come through. My Sons are teasing me over the football, I like Harry Kane, good looking lad, never hear the end of it.

      2. The German’s are always strong. I like the way they play but they win too much. I’d like to see them beaten – especially by the Irish. They can do it.
        Harry is a great goal-scorer. I wish he didn’t have his mouth open all the time though. Makes him look daft.

      3. I reckon the Germans will get right through to the end, but yes it would be nice to see NI win, pity they have got this draw. My youngest is always on about Harry Kane and his mouth, I have not noticed, he is only young and too much pressure on him, he is very good given the support and of course good looking helps whilst watching England play. Rooney always looks like he is melting, but great player. What time is the match on, trying to get the hoovering done here, all this excitement!!

    2. Wales have the best player bar none and they are now strong contenders.
      I see no reason why N. Ireland couldn’t beat Germany.

      1. When I saw Wales play the first time, I asked my youngest to put a bet on for me Wales V Germany, and watching Wales well it would be a great match if it happened. We are all going to watch NI later on then. What team do you support Andrew, and the same question to Opher. I support West Ham (well I would have to wouldn’t I). There was a man who lived in the same road as us, he ran (I don’t think owned) “The Boleyn” Pub, all the players used to go in, and many a time I was invited to go and watch West Ham play (in the Directors box with him and his Son), turned it down, bloody foolish of me, oh well.

      3. I was seduced by George Best – his genius dribbling and shooting – a demon. Liz’s brothers are both West Ham through and through. I’ll have to make sure I keep you apart. I couldn’t bear that.

  21. Good laugh that. I used to follow Liverpool only for Roger Hunt, World Cup player. Opher without West Ham England would not have Won the World Cup, that’s the truth. This new squad, well these youngsters they have are doing very well given time and preparation they will go far. Not keen on that Wiltshire though. Can’t think of his name but the England player that is short and his head seems to disappear into his body, he was great last night.

    1. I thought it was Nobby wot won it!
      But yes – the West Ham boys did good.
      Not sure which one you meant. Was he up front or at the back?

      1. “The West Ham Boys did good”, They Won it. I have no idea of position, except useless goalkeeper and kickers – I just like to watch and shout, lose control – no this chap was small like a Jack Russell dog always there, his head seemed to sink into his body, always wears a wrist band, plays for Leicester, does that help.

  22. YES Vardy (and I am shouting because I am delighted you got it) was it the wristband or Leicester was the clue. Northern Ireland did very well against the Germans, I wish we had the NI Goalkeeper and not that idiot we have.

  23. Anna, I was never a supporter of any one team. As a youth I used to go to both Rangers & Celtic, as they never played at home on the same Saturday, except their games with each other which as an attendee were somewhat more dangerously mental crazy than anything I’ve ever seen in England. I’d be leaving with glass shards in my hair and sometimes covered in urine! I’d go to see home games of quite a few teams in England, as I moved around city to city in the 80s. After that I was abroad for years and lost interest. I always watch the international matches.

    1. It just clicked.
      Ireland played well. The Germans were just too strong. They went down valiantly though and the goalie was great.

  24. I have heard about the violence between Celtic and Rangers, aren’t they always at each other. When you were abroad all those years, a much travelled man, did you follow any one Country. That’s a shock just a few minutes ago isn’t it Andrew, Spain out you would always expect to see Spain battling through. Delighted for Northern Ireland, they have done so well.

    Were you ever badly hurt when you went to those matches at home, what is wrong with these people, of course it’s Religion again, am I right? Late Dinner tonight, doing a Roast Beef etc – Boys didn’t want it last night so what with me trying to watch the football and get things done, it should be 10.30 before we sit down. Well they will enjoy it, I hope?

    1. Most of Rangers and Celtic supporters hate each other and have done since 1888. That will never change until they dispense with the Pope and Catholicism.
      I’ve never liked Spain, dirty players, way too much non-injury acting and spit in player’s eyes when corner’s are in play.
      Very glad to see them lose because I had £20 on that they would.

      There’s only one international team Anna, unfortunately they aren’t in this competition. The Tartan Army and we’re coming back for more goalposts this year!

  26. I was joking! They’ve now got the international reputation of one of the best behaved supporters of any international team. That said…..we’ll see. Depends upon the sort of “welcome” they receive.

  27. I can’t remember the odds Anna, for that particular game and it doesn’t really matter as I’ve got bets on with several accumulator bets running. My potential winnings are governed by a series of results and I’m not at the end of any yet as the competition has many games to go.

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