It seems to me that anyone who criticises Israel, and its hardline policies, is accused of Anti-Semitic views. It seems to me that there are valid criticisms to be levelled at Israel and that criticising certain policies and actions cannot be anti-Semitic.
What is needed in the Middle East is a solution to the Palestinian situation, the recognition of Israel, the formation of a Palestinian State, the end of all threats and violence and reparation for those harmed.
Jeremy Corbyn has been active in trying to find a solution to the problem. To that end he has met with people from all sides just as the British government met with the IRA during the troubles. I would support sharing platforms with dubious people in the search for a lasting peace. That is not anti-Semitic.
Jeremy Corbyn is the least likely racist or anti-Semite I can imagine.
I heard the interview with Ken Livingston which has caused such controversy and saw nothing wrong with it. He claimed that Hitler was a Zionist in that he was after shipping the Jews to a nation in the Middle East before turning to an even worse policy of extermination. He did not suggest Hitler was right to do this or support Hitler’s insane anti-Semitic views. The Haavara agreement of 1933, where Hitler negotiated with Zionist Jews, seems to support Ken Livingston’s statement. What is anti-Semitic about that?
It seems to me that all this is a storm in a tea-cup and an excuse by Corbyn opponents and right-wingers to try to undermine him.
Perhaps someone could explain to me where I am wrong?
“It seems to me that there are valid criticisms to be levelled at Israel and that criticising certain policies and actions cannot be anti-Semitic.” That whole political correctness makes it almost impossible to have a reasonable and politically sound discussion about anything these days, doesn’t it???
I think so Cheryl. Anyone who speaks out is immediately accused of racism or anti-Semiticism. I don’t think it is. There are many things that Israel does that I take exception to. The illegal settlements to start with.
Good insights: i think the problem is that the media dont know what to make of Corbyn- a grassroots activist who has risen in power and public support- and therefore are focusing on profit and choosing eye-catching headlines that will keep the right wing enraged and still not be plausable enough to enrage the left; i think this attack on Corbyn is a variation on this
I agree with you. I think the Tory media are very keen to use anything to create doubt. To accuse him of being racist seems risible to me. The Jewish council is extremely right-wing. I’m not surprised they oppose him.
Rubbish. The Jewish Council are in fact natural Labour Party supporters.
Rubbish – They are packed with Tories – ‘These accusations have come from the unrepresentative Board of Deputies and the unelected, self-proclaimed “Jewish Leadership Council”, two bodies dominated by supporters of the Tory Party.’
I wouldn’t put all my eggs into that quote if I were you.
You should know that the majority of Jewish people would by nature be Labour supporters, which is also what part of all the flurry is about, isn’t it?
The majority of Jewish people may well be Labour voters. The majority of the Jewish Council are Tories or even more right-wing. Check it out. They are not representative.
Yes there are people saying obnoxious racist things and action needs taking. Corbyn needs to get a move on.
Sounds like a smear campaign as the Right looks ahead to the next election. I agree that Israel is not the last word on how to bring about peace in the Middle East. Good post, Opher.
Cheers John.
No John, it is nothing of the kind and is actually a protest from the moderate left membership of the Labour Party, with Corbyn being considered as extreme left.
This is not made-up fabricated stuff, but real situations that have been allowed to get completely out of control. The moderates are extremely angry with Corbyn and friends because of their blithe utterances and hesitation and continuous non-action against too many errant party members that have expressed themselves in a foul and insulting manner towards Jewish people, some of whom are also party members and/or supporters. A lot of Jewish money comes into Labour.
This is coupled with Corbyn’s weak and inconsiderate statements and positioning over the Russian nerve agent poisoning attack in Solsbury. where he has failed to stand in solidarity not only with the UK, but with almost every major country in the world.
As a politician, he is nothing short of a national disgrace. All’s he’s missing now is some sandpaper and a cricket ball.
The Tories need not lift a finger in this instance. You are witnessing the beginning of the implosion of Labour in main UK, having already been destroyed in Scotland about two years ago. Obviously this is proving too much to handle for some staunch Labourites and tempers are flairing.
Jibreel – your analysis is way off the mark and lacking in understanding. You have swallowed the whole media portrayal hook line and sinker.
Corbyn represents true Labour values. Unfortunately, following the death of John Smith, Tony Blair and Mandelson got together to hi-jack the Labour party, create New Labour, and make them into watered-down Tories. They continued with Thatcherite policies with a more caring edge and were very successful. The media latched on to the fact that they were continuing Thatcher’s dream and supported them.
Corbyn has taken the party back to real Labour values which is why the Labour MPs, who were all Blairite watered-down Tories, rebelled. The grassroots, who want real Labour policies, rallied. There has been a fight for the direction of the Party. New Labour was ditched and the Blairites continue to squeal, bleat and try to unseat Corbyn by whatever means. The media, of course, are doing everything in their power to exaggerate, lie and cause trouble. Their steady stream of vitriolic lies is aimed at undermining his support.
Corbyn isn’t hard-left. He is a true Labour left-winger. His policies are not madness but a return to true Labour values of the same radical nature that the Labour Party had at its inception. The party that put into practice its crazy policies when elected (which the press at the time were screaming about) – which is why we have a welfare state and NHS – both an anathema to Tories.
Can the country afford it? Yes we can. We are the sixth biggest economy. We can afford it if we stop directing all the wealth to the fat-cats and start focussing on the rest of the population and the infrastructure. We can afford it.
Funny how there’s no magic money tree until the DUP need bribing. Then suddenly the money appears by magic.
It’s time we invested in the infrastructure. It’s time we invested in public services. It’s time we reduced inequality. It’s time we stopped landing all our kids with huge debt. It’s time we kicked this mob out!
Please desist with all these bloody weak excuses and all this knee-jerk reaction with claims of Labour values. Nobody, least of Labour has any focus on any of that anymore in this day and age. You’re living like it’s 1954 with old Clement Attlee at the helm. Remove head from sand immediately.
Nobody needs a bloody history lesson because we weren’t born last week. We lived through the same as you and it was an unmitigated shambles of a mess, and pretty much the same level of shambles as the Labour party sits in today.
Were the Labour Party a farm animal, it would be a filthy pig, wallowing in its own excrement.
Corbyn is extreme left and he always has been. Why else would he have been a staunch believer in the Soviet Union? Or are you going to deny that, too?
I’m am not interested in the media – I’ll leave that all to you to get yourself into an hysterical tizz. But I do watch what he does and listen to what he says.
You say that you can find no faults and no such element of truth?
What about his very latest comment on the wall mural?
What about his comments on the Russian nerve gas incident?
What about his reinstatement of three previously suspended members accused of discriminatory remarks against Jews?
It’s all there for you in recorded form. What part of that gives you difficulty in understanding what’s going down here?
Yet you have the gall to say that I’m “off the mark and lacking in understanding.”
Why are there so many of these archetypal lefty nutters in denial. They really can’t be helping matters any.
Jibrel/Andrew – well you’re entitled to your view no matter how daft it is. My memories are of the gross division and destruction of the public services under Thatcher.
I already did a post on the Russian Nerve Gas – he was spot on. We still do not know who did it. He asked for proof instead of a knee-jerk overreaction. That makes sense to me. First you find out the full details before jumping to conclusions.
I don’t hold this ‘Highly probable’ – yes it is highly probably but that is not definitive. Waiting for proof and, as opposition leader, asking for proof, is intelligent. Nothing is lost in waiting until the evidence is in before acting.
You have missed the point. The current protests against anti-Semitism are not related to criticism of Israel by Jezza or indeed anyone else. They relate to abuse, threats and bullying perpetrated by supporters of Corbyn against Jewish members of the Labour Party including the Labour MPS, Ruth Smeeth and Luciana Berger and the fact that Corbyn as leader has done nothing or little to stop it other than engage Shami Chakrabarti in producing a hastily prepared report which essentially whitewashed the problem. I don’t know Jezza personally so I can’t comment of his true character but as far as I am able, I consider him a decent man. What I do think is that he is naïve and incompetent. He tends to associate with individuals or organisations who are anti-Semitic in their views and or Islamists. For example he has publicly supported the organisation MEND which was instrumental in forcing St. Stephen’s School, Newham in allowing girls under 8 years to wear the hijab despite concerns over health & safety when the girls were playing outside. Mend portrayed the episode as an attack on Islam. What people don’t seem to understand is that there is no requirement in Islam for a woman let alone a girl to wear a hijab. It’s an individual choice. MEND helps to finance the extremist organisation CAGE which portrayed Mohammed Emwazi (“Jihadi John” the executioner in Aleppo) as a very nice boy. Jezza is also on record in describing Hamas and Hezbollah (proscribed terrorist organisations as “friends”). He has been paid for broadcasting on the banned TV channel Press TV, the propaganda machine of the oppressive regime Iran. He has also described Ibrahim Hewitt, the Islamic revert who runs an Islamic faith school as a friend. I suggest you read his book “What does Islam say?” to ascertain whether Hewitt holds extreme views. For example, do you believe homosexuals should be put to death? I suggest you listen to what Ruth Smeeth and Luciana Berger have to say before swallowing Jezza’s bullshit. They are two of the victims.
Bede – I think there are forces at work to try to undermine Jeremy and the Jewish Council is an extremely right-wing body.
I believe Jeremy is a man with integrity and stands against racism of all kinds. I believe that he has shared platforms with dubious characters in order to attempt to find a way of achieving peace. I think that some of the terms he uses – such as ‘friends’ – are not intended in the way they have been interpreted.
Yes he has been slow in dealing with the issue and yes he is a bit naïve at times. But I do not find that a fatal character flaw. I prefer a bit of naivety to the cynical arrogance and self-serving deceitfulness of many of the Tories.
You have joined Corbyn’s cult following. You have been brainwashed into removing impartiality. From what I recall of Livingstone’s comment whilst walking (btw it was not a formal interview) he said Hitler was a Zionist. Well, clearly he was the very opposite. The tentative agreement of 1933 was merely an efficient and cheap way of removing Jews from the territory of the Axis powers. When that failed he resorted to other means – the holocaust. “White men like to divide and rule” – I heard Diane Abbott say that recently on the political programme “This Week”. Do you agree that it a racist statement or can you find an excuse for that also? Yet Corbyn has her lined up as the next Home Secretary. What a joke! What about Naz Shah advocating for the removal of Israel to the USA and calling for the victims of the Rotherham grooming scandal to shut their mouths for the sake of diversity? Do you find that acceptable for an MP supposedly representing all her constituents? I was not referring to the Jewish Council. I was referring to the Labour Party Members, including elected MPs, who had been abused, threatened and bullied because they happened to follow the Jewish faith. Is that ok in your book for the sake of Jezza’s future success? It appears so to me on the basis of your comments.
Bede – of course I follow Corbyn. He’s the only one making sense. He’s the only one with policies that will sort out the mess the Tories are making.
I heard the interview with Livingston live. I don’t think he said anything that was untrue. He said that Hitler started as a Zionist in that he wanted, in agreement with the Jews, to move the Jews to a new nation in the Middle East.
I am quite sure that Hitler’s intentions were not based on any great love; he wanted rid of all the Jews and that seemed a way. He was always a racist. He later changed that from Zionism to extermination.
But Livingston was right. This has been blown out of all proportions by opportunists who are looking to undermine Corbyn.
Both Diane Abbott and Naz Shah were wrong. That should not be acceptable and neither is the bullying of anyone because of their belief or lack of it.
Do you want me to dig out a whole series of scurrilous crap said by the Tories or the bullying that has gone on there with thugs like Grant Chaps?
Politics is a dirty business and it attracts unpleasant people.
Supporting a party does not mean that they are perfect or that you agree with everything they do. If you think that bullying, racism and anti-Semitism does not exist in all other political parties you are fooling yourself. The Tory right-wing is verging on fascism and is not that far from the British Movement and other nationalistic fascists.
“not based on any great love” ffs. How could Hitler be a Zionist ffs? I’m not suggesting an MP needs to be perfect but they need to be fit for office especially if they are being groomed for high office for which Diane Abbott is clearly unsuitable not just because she has expressed racist views but also because she has demonstrated her incompetence on several occasions. I’m not a Tory supporter which you appear to assume just like you assume some conspiracy theory when Corbyn’s credibility is undermined. I don’t go for conspiracy theories in the absence of supporting evidence. It’s an easy way out for apologists for unacceptable views and unacceptable public figures. Post some evidence of your contention that the Tory right-wing is verging on fascism. Which members of the Cabinet do you say are fascist? Have they started wearing black shirts? The issue you raised is anti-Semitism within the Labour Party (you deny it exists) not other organisations. If it exists in other organisations and no doubt it does, it does not detract from the problem within the Labour Party. Why don’t you listen to the views of Labour MPs Ruth Smeeth, Luciana Berger and others instead of coming up with yet another conspiracy theory against the lovely Jeremy so you can adjudge the hard facts and not propaganda.
Bede – I did not say that there weren’t pockets of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. I said there were pockets of anti-Semitism in all political parties and that the Tory Party was probably worst of all for bullying and nastiness.
I would suggest that if you want to know who are the most fascist bunch of Tories look no further than the Monday Club. That seems to attract the worst scum.
I’m not making conspiracy theories. I am saying that right-wingers and the right-wing media are all looking for every opportunity to attack Corbyn. This is just the latest. The Jewish Council is probably right of the Monday Club. No wonder they are protesting about Corbyn. There are a bunch of right-wing Tories on that council.
While he’s not perfect he’s a damn sight better than anything the Tories have to offer.
How can you defend their abysmal record? They are the most right-wing government we’ve had. They are as bad, if not worse, than Thatcher.
What it boils down to Bede is that you either elect the Tories or Labour. That’s the choice and you shout loudly that you’re not a Tory but spend your time knocking Corbyn. What does that say?
If there was an election I would vote Tory to help keep Corbyn’s Labour out. His election to high office would be that bad for the UK. I hope I can get out in time. There were Labour MPs at the anti-Semitism protest outside Parliament and not only Jewish ones but moderate ones like Harriet Harman & Chukka Umuna. By your reckoning two thirds of Labour MPs in 2016 were right wing because they attacked Corbyn. You throw around wild accusations of fascism but can’t produce any evidence to support them. The Monday Club are not the government and which members of the Jewish Council are extreme right wing or even right-wing Tories? The issue you raised as I have said several times was anti-Semitism in the Labour Party not the composition of the Jewish Council You have blatantly failed to respond to the treatment of Ruth Smeeth & Luciana Berger by extremists supporting Corbyn so I assume you are ok with the threats etc aimed at them by Corbyn’s supporters. You mentioned previously about your wish to “purge” the Labour Party. That is fascism not the activities of some bigoted Tories who have no power. Reminds me of Stalinism and Nazism this ideal Labour Party of your dreams.
Bede – there are members of the cabinet in the Monday club. I already said that I despise any bullying or racism. The problem with the Labour Party was that it was taken over by the likes of Mandelson and Blair and made into a Thatcherite watered down Tory party. We need to get it back to a proper socialist party.
I’m not surprised that you would vote Tory. But I would urge you to stop looking at the peripherals and distractions and start looking at the policies.
If you vote Tory you are voting for the dissemination of public services, tax cuts to the rich and a party that is so right wing it is unbelievable.
Labour policies are fair and would support public services, end austerity, boost the economy, nationalise the industries that need and reduce inequality.
It is all about policies. I am afraid you are falling for the machinations of the Tory media.
The vision of the UK as an equal, prosperous country under Corbyn’s leadership. which, blinded, you have swallowed, is a sham perpetrated by power-grabbers and extremists who will cause chaos and protests in our society. The anti-Semitism within the Labour ranks which you downplay is an indicator of which direction Corbyn’s Labour is headed. That’s what happened in the early 30s within the National Socialist Party and led to the holocaust and numerous other atrocities. I assume you, like Corbyn, saw nothing wrong in the wall mural in the East End. Today another Corbyn supporter with a senior Labour Party role has been forced to resign for supporting a holocaust-denier Labour Councillor (read the Guardian report). In addition Corbyn’s Labour has few people of ability. A Corbyn Labour government will be paralysed by infighting the like of has never been seen before. There will be massive expulsions from the Party and eventually a collapse of the Party. Meanwhile extremists & union leaders will rule the roost; taxes both national and local will go through the roof; strikes will lead to chaos in the NHS, schools closed and garbage piling up in our streets; the UK will have financial restrictions placed on it in return for loans from the IMF. Unemployment will rocket; energy costs will rocket; crime will rocket; more businesses will go bust or move to the EU and there will be riots on the streets. All the while Corbyn will be blithely reassuring the country on tv that he is in control. Btw you voted for Blair and Mandelson. I didn’t. You are more conservative than I am as your lifestyle over the years has demonstrated. Be careful what you wish for. A Corbyn government will destroy your lifestyle.
Pray tell me what are the policies of the Labour Party. They don’t appear to know. Their manifesto was a list of promises (more like bribes)they can’t deliver without bankrupting the country. They can’t even agree on the EU. In, out shake it all about. It’s a farce. Thornberry and Starmer are in disagreement now. Jezza must have a sore arse, he sits on the fence that often & does nothing.
Their manifesto was extremely clear (and fully costed).
I read their manifesto and it wasn’t. It was subjective pie in the sky and a very expensive pie.
As for this claim of being fully costed – is that some kind of added bonus?
Had this been above and beyond all of your expectations?
When a whole load of fully paid up flunkys have to sit around waiting for some action for year in, year out, is it so surprising that some of them were able to put pen to paper and come up with something like a plan? I’d have thought that this was an elementary basic.
You say I am a Tory. I started voting for the Ecology Party in the 70s when the country was stricken with incompetent governments under both Conservatives and Labour – power cuts; double digit inflation; double digit interest rates; manufacturing output paralysed by egomaniacal union leaders; people leaving the country because of the high tax rates and many other problems. The Ecology Party became the Green Party so they got my vote. Last June I voted for the Conservative Party as a tactical ploy because I can’t contemplate what I consider would be a disastrous Corbyn-led government even though I am not and never have been a supporter of the Establishment. I’ve been a rebel most of my adult life, targeted by representatives of the Establishment because I eschewed a cosy, middle class, conservative life. Blair won 3 elections on the trot. Of those 3, in how many did you vote Labour? I know you supported Blair’s decision to invade Iraq in 2003 since you admitted that some time ago.
Bede – if you vote Tory then be prepared to be labelled by it. I have voted Labour in every election since I was of age. I have had varying degrees of agreement and have toyed with voting Green but the alternative of a Tory government is too much of a nightmare. I see the damage the wreak every time they get in.
Some excellent posts by Bernard Nalson, all of which I thoroughly agree with.
I fear that Opher’s call for a return to a “proper socialist party” maybe the dim and distant memories of the proverbial wandering Jew. Surely by now in 2018, everyone fully understands that socialist societies only survive by using force on their citizens and removing their freedom to run their own lives. Socialism is a dead 20th century ideology that fails every time, everywhere.
I think a re-think should be made regards the description of the circumstances surrounding the volatile situation the Zionist Jewish leadership found themselves forced to be in 1933. To describe anything of the such as an “agreement” or “negotiation”, quote: “The Haavara agreement of 1933, where Hitler negotiated with Zionist Jews, seems to support Ken Livingston’s statement. What is anti-Semitic about that?”
Answer: Everything is anti-Semitic about that and surely the reasons why need not be explained to any cognitive person. The very concept of such a decree in the first place should be obvious.
Strange why so many supporters of the left drown themselves in conspiracy theories and manipulation and always fail to understand that the current government (and I don’t necessarily vote for them to be able to discuss them) are still in the process of diligently repairing an insurmountable amount of issues that were seriously buggered up some years ago by the last Labour tenancy. As a mere by-standing civil servant employed within the NHS – I do national computer systems stuff – all this talk of NHS “crisis” etc forget one basic fundamental – you cannot build a hospital for 100,000 people and expect it to perform as it should when the demands for usage are from 130,000 people. Our national demographic planning went completely awol during and after Labour’s tenure when hundreds of thousands of people flooded into the UK unaccounted for. It is estimated to be somewhere close to half a million extra that arrived undetected and none of this information was used to inform divisional planning and growth budgeting. I suggest that it would not be too long until the adverse affects of this problem became THE problem. Anyway, slowly but surely…
Strange bunch this Labour lot. The propagators of a seemingly endless stream of consciousness and a motley collection of metropolitan upper-middle class egocentrics that make up the majority of Parliamentary Labour MPs.
Old Peter Mandelson’s mission statement from 1988 seems to have come full circle and hit square on – “run the Right’s nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date”.
Corbyn’s shadowy mate, Sadiq Khan, with his blithe lipped statement that moderate Muslims were “Uncle Toms”.
Dianne Abbott, the pandering, obsequiously pesky thorn is society’s side emboldened by her penchant for vitriolic argument from ignorance with her ex-rabid support for the activities of the IRA, and her classic catchphrase of 2013, “the more immigrants living in your area, the less likely you are going to be worried about it”. The accusations of anti-white racism are mere inconvenience having been caught out.
Andy Burnham hadn’t got the courage of his convictions to do what the rest of his New Labour mates did and refuse to serve in Corbyn’s shadow cabinet. He’ll just do what most all modern Labour politicians do – whatever’s best for him.
Corbyn, the former supporter of the Soviet regime who openly expressed his heartbreak at the breakup of the USSR, the apologist for terrorism and holds selective compassion and sympathy for radicalisation, and has severe symptoms of denial having sold out after having been against the EU since the early 70s. His railroading of neo-liberalism when it suits is highly questionable.
He has expressed a most peculiar and skewered moral landscape demonstrating abject confusion and which has certainly been further exacerbated by the resignation of Christine Shawcroft. What does this man stand for? The Labour moderates need to prise off the white-knuckle grasp of this unrealistic extreme left undemocratic elite at the helm of their ship.
Who was it that said “people did not vote how they were told”?
All this loose conjecture of Fascist Tories is highly inaccurate as no such people have any presence in the current cabinet. And if they were, why aren’t they also taking some flak for anti-Zionism, too? Furthermore, given Fascist rallies struggle to pull together more than two dozen people in UK, the notion that many Britons have suddenly turned into raging xenophobes is somewhat hysterical. I don’t buy into any of this anti-Jewish stuff on Corbyn and co., as equally as I don’t buy into any Tory cabinet people being Fascists. That’s just mindless stupidity and completely detracts from any rational interaction of discussion.
The liberal classes, media and political, have an agenda which is objectively false and they will vilify and attack anyone who disagrees and attempts to push a counter narrative.
The liberal classes are truly detested by a massive number of British people and they, the liberals, are unable to understand why …
The problem we face is that the liberal establishment are not just seen to be living in merely an ivory tower or bubble, but in a dark and sinister castle. The decrees and morality which they foist down onto the general population are not ‘humanitarian’ or in any sense morally justifiable; it is ill conceived lunacy at best, genocidal at worst.
No – rubbish. Once again blaming Labour for a world recession, not seeing the great success of democratic socialism in Europe and jumping on every cliché going.
No blame has been made in this instance ref world recession or with Labour being blamed for that. Where did you see that within my post? There’s nothing of any such nature.
But since you brought the subject up, I’d suggest the decision to borrow the most expensive loan money possible was extremely foolish.
Some of these senior Labour people have deep seated problems and nothing of the sort of any cliche was applied. These people have made some incredibly stupid public comments and I quoted a couple of them. I’ve no idea who exactly they think they are speaking for.
I’m not so sure about this success of democratic socialism in Europe.
Were it so why do we have so many wandering transients? What’s successful about people arriving somewhere under duress and cap in hand?
Perhaps Labour should apply and practice this democratic socialism and stop meddling with calls for another referendum on the EU.
More importantly concerning Corbyn and his Jewish Question, watch BBC’s This Week that was on earlier tonight and hear what three Labour supporters have to say about it. Perhaps also the two earlier posters need some educating on this subject.
Of course there was a blaming of Labour for the World Recession in your reply. When things went pear-shaped (world-wide) they did try to prop it up. Who wouldn’t have? And that did mean borrowing at exorbitant rates. But what was the choice at that moment? None!
I would remind you that the only time this country has been in the black was under Labour.
Yes there are some Labour supporters who are yobs – some who issue threats and come out with anti-Semitic garbage. They need rooting out. But don’t get holier than thou citing the Tory Party and the bullying and nastiness that goes on there with people like Grant Chaps and the obnoxious bullying emails that were sent during the leadership election. Outright threats to the poor little Angela Leadsom.
The difference is that the media (all in the hands of Tory propagandists) like to seize on and exaggerate all the crap stuff about the Labour Party and cover up or ignore the equally unpleasant side of the Tory Party.
At the bottom line it all boils down to policies and Labour policies are far far far superior to Tory ones.
You’re not sure about Democratic Socialism working in Europe – well I am. It creates a far more equal and contented country with far superior infrastructure and facilities. I suggest you check it out. It works.
I also wonder what proper socialism might have been like in places like Cuba and Chile if it hadn’t been so actively undermined and destroyed. We’ve not yet seen any example that wasn’t subjected to huge active terrorism by the CIA, military overthrow and financial destabilisation.
You can believe what you like. It all comes down to personal taste. But I want a fairer country with less inequality, with good, well-funded public services and the railways and power being run for the people rather than for profit of a bunch of fat cats. You can like what you want.
Personally I am sick to death of the greed, selfishness, elitism and callousness of this self-serving, power-mad government. The sooner they are kicked out the better. They have given away their tax cuts to their pals, run public services into the ground, boosted the big corporations, introduced more and more privatisation and imposed an austerity programme that has made the poor pay for the greed of the rich and badly damaged our economy (now functioning around the worst in Europe).
So – it’s a free country – you go ahead and support the heinous despots who are running the place now.
Sorry but you are greatly mistaken.
There was no such reference in my first post and I suggest either you chose not to read it properly or have confused it’s contents with a another post by a n other.
However, because you mentioned it, I also mentioned it in my second post, where I made comment on the cost of Labour’s foolish borrowing. You tried to defend that, whilst obviously forgetting there were multiple choices of where money could have been borrowed from, yet Labour chose THE most expensive. I’m sure the penny will eventually drop for you with this eventually.
No, I see no such examples of this fantasy socialism. You make a list of what if’s and abject failure examples – was I supposed to overlook that and think, “why, the man’s right, you know!” I don’t thinks so.
Look at the state of affairs in Spain, Portugal and Italy. Look at the political situation in almost every single one of these former Soviet bloc states, and you call that Democratic Socialism? If so, you’re welcome to it, I’ll pass.
Where do they make people like you? It’s like something from the black and white days of Lord Haw-Haw and people wearing brown and black shirts and marching about saluting and calling each other ‘comrade’ and ‘citizen’. A ghastly vision.
No thanks!
insurmountable amount of issues that were seriously buggered up some years ago by the last Labour tenancy.
No I do not call Spain, Portugal and Italy Democratic Socialism. For that you have to look to Scandinavia and Switzerland.
I think you are horribly confused with the fascists.
People like me are made out of a need for fairness, equality and freedom. Sorry – I don’t fall for the Daily Express version of socialism that you seem to have swallowed.
So why didn’t you simply pin-point Scandinavia in the first place? Why hide behind all these bullshit descriptors – that are so misused by the great unwashed that they have become useless.
Switzerland. Are you seriously expecting me to take you on board with that?
Have you ever so much as been there?
Please allow me the privilege to convey to you from some first hand experience, having worked there for some time in the 80’s and some dozen visits over the last 30 years doing skiing. They don’t even know what poverty is in Switzerland. Even the waiter in my local bar when I lived there drove himself a nice BMW. Even when they ran Needle Park in Basle for a while, the junkies drove there!
They also have mandatory 18-months army conscription for young men. Therefore, they openly practice aggression, sexism and discrimination. Where is the socialism there?
But you didn’t know anything about that, obviously.
We wouldn’t know where to start to form such a society. Firstly, we’d have to completely transform the UK into a Police state and I doubt if that would be taken on board by the public. People would need to take on board a whole host of civil responsibilities that they would struggle with or refuse to do. We aren’t naturals for accurate reporting of our business activities, movement of cash, and playing by the rules. You are simply asking way too much there.
Scandinavia? You’d starve in Scandinavia. Prices are extortionate, taxes are very high, life is cruel for those that do not or cannot strive to achieve to be a model citizen – by that they mean by “joining in”, being a clone to expectation as individuality isn’t particularly or expressly encouraged. Alcoholism is at monster levels. Numbers of cases of suffering depression are record level high. Suicide rates are record level high. People feel like a spoke in a wheel. Can’t see any way it would work here. Besides they’ve got so few people up there in relative terms to ourselves and that makes a big difference in terms of effective organisation. We have enough socialist stuff in place as it is. I’d hate the thought that my very bright and naturally academic child would be imposed to suffer the same educational standards as some loutish yobo who could not care less about his education. And that’s very possibly what we’d get. Pass.
I know what Fascism is and know nothing of anything to do with the Daily Express, so
please don’t be such a joker, matey. Is that your best shot, the daily-fecking-express?
What are you, leftie my numbers, like some pre-programmed chimp on repeat. Damn you and your bloody daily express quips.
If you want fairness, equality and freedom, what the devil are you doing with Corbyn?
He’s some grisly, gnarly looking really old geezer going on for 75 from god knows what era. Who the hell does he represent – the Victor Meldrews – one foot in the grave types? No thanks, matey, I’m still in the land of the living.
I really don’t think you know enough about what you are trying to talk about here.
You simply cannot dangle a hope and a prayer that the socialism you’d like would not be abused as it has been is so many cases.
Even your preferred Sweden practised the extermination of the mentally ill and imperfect. Your failure of learned analysis is somewhat questionable.
Your’e living in some kind of fluffy fantasy world with ‘nice’ socialists that promised you that under no circumstances would you ever find yourself scrutinised by secret police, investigated into, or rounded up into a stadium and shot as an enemy of the state for even thinking outside of the box. I hate Socialism. I’ve seen it, lived it and it wasn’t an enjoyable experience and reeked of disgusting corruption at every turn.
Everywhere I go in Europe, and I’ve been almost everywhere except maybe three ex-Soviet countries, they talk of socialism this and that – no it bloody isn’t, it’s nothing more than a megalomaniacal pantomime of politically corrupt gangsters in cut-suits, Hollywood platinum teeth and third wives. You’re welcome to it. It awaits you. They call it Europe.
What a xenophobic diatribe of nonsense.
I’m afraid Opher, that you are wrong there.
I gave you fair chance to list those Socialist states that you would wish to replicate. I then in turn listed some of the defects within these states systems as known and all of which can be verified by yourself.
Nothing within my reply relating to that list of defects is inaccurate.
It might be a good idea if you could read up a bit more about what you’d like to talk about, practice the art of discussion and learn to use the word “xenophobic” properly and in the relevant context. Otherwise it’s not going to go too well for you.
I can’t think of anything more embarrassing than being accused of illiteracy.
Why are you such a one-trick pony? I see that you come out with a pre-conceived statement, ask for replies, get some, then it’s wham-bam into completely shut down because your cupboard of knowledge is bare. It’s laughably ridiculous. You are without doubt one of the single most ill-informed and very easily irritable people that I have come across hosting their own blog. Usually such people are on the other side of the page and not doing the hosting! But, hey, it’s grand entertainment.
I’m inclined to think that it’s not actually yourself that composes the original blog content.
Your last reply was an astonishing catastrophe.
Hey Andrew – where did you learn to be such a wanker?
What happened to my earlier post – I’m sure it loaded up OK. That’s weird and there was nothing in it that should have prevented it’s load up.
Anyway I’m not long off the phone to my Labour MP, I know him fairly well, and he had some interesting things to say. Never mind, I’ll load them up.
Opher, I just read all this again. There’s some good quality content within the replies and to be honest I’d have a hard job disagreeing with very much if any of it. It only highlights what a damned mess Labour are in. Corbyn just has to get rid of some people immediately.
Btw, what was it that caused the ‘wanker’ accusation?
Neil – I think Labour do need to act and they are.
I do not tolerate personal abuse on this site.