It would appear that are terrorists are homegrown. They are radicalised by fanatics on line, among their friends and in their mosques.
In my opinion the problem is complex and requires a series of solutions.
- Integrate children into British society and British values of tolerance
2. Wipe out ISIS militarily, and Boko Haram, A Qaeda and similar groups.
3. Shut down internet sites spreading hate.
4. Hunt down the clerics and other purveyors of hatred and lock them up
5. Welcome Muslims and bring them on side. Most Muslims are law-abiding and hate terrorism as much as anyone else. If the trust is there they will report suspicious people to the police.
6. Educate all children to tolerate, respect, and value others.
7. Police the mosques and Madrassas to prevent radical propaganda
8. Shut down the hundreds of illegal schools
The most stupid thing the Tories are doing is introducing more religious schools – creating more segregation and apartness.
The other stupid thing is to cut back on the police so that they haven’t got the means to do the job.
Then there is the effect of making people feel unwelcome. That needs addressing.
What do you think?
Well, it sounds like a knee-jerk reaction which is not what Shami Chakrabarti wants according to what she said in a Newsnight interview last night. I wonder what she would have said if her precious privately-educated son had been one of the teenagers blown to bits.
I agree with monitoring mosques and faith schools. They are monitored in Pakistan and Tunisia. Why not here? Anyone can open a mosque here.
I can’t understand why you have attached a photo of your hero Jeremy to your piece since I doubt he would share your views. He thinks it’s possible to negotiate with these fanatics. In his dreams. That just confirms the naivety she displayed in marching and sharing a platform with the IRA who were responsible for the murder of innocent men, women and children. Oh I forgot. They were actually freedom fighters so the deaths don’t count.
Not really a knee-jerk reaction. It is the same argument I’ve been saying for years. As a pacifist it is a big jump for me to advocate using military means against groups like ISIS but I think they are so abhorrent that there is no alternative.
Who sees murderers as freedom fighters?
Wasn’t it through negotiation that the IRA action ceased?
No actually. It was through infiltration of MI5 agents into their ranks. There were so many that it got to the stage where they couldn’t make a move and their game was up.
At least that was the response to that question on BBC’s Hard Talk by a former senior IRA member who was personally responsible for approximately 100 shootings and several bombs in UK. He did time, got released and is now a practicing lawyer in N. Ireland.
I have to say I’m with you on this, Opher, though I think most of that is being done to some extent. It’s the segregating kids in schools that bothers me, and Betsy DeVos who is over the schools here now is trying to do exactly that with her preaching about private school. Scares the crap out of me. As long as there’s an us and them attitude, peace has no chance.
I agree Cheryl. I believe passionately in tolerance, empathy and respect. We need to integrate our children and not segregate them. All divisions create problems.
I hope you are fully recovered now. It sounds as if you have been quite ill?
Here Cheryl the Muslims are segregating themselves, we are not doing it, they are choosing to have their own Schools, the First Two Muslim Banks have opened here only Muslims can use them (don’t know if Opher knows that). There is going to be terrible trouble in this Country. Apart from the fact any day now we can expect a massive Muslim Terrorist Attack. The Royals and Government are protected with all the armed Police/Army, never mind the rest of us. Isis will do something Very Unexpected in this Country very shortly. Here in Clacton-on-Sea in a few months we shall have our Annual Air Show which is the biggest in Europe, all of Essex and lots of London gather here thousands and thousands of people for the two day Air Show, God forbid an attack. Isis are planning Mass Murder in this Country thats for sure. Terrible World now. How are you? Leg probs still going had scan last Sunday. I’ll write soon, take care to you all.
I haven’t heard of Muslim banks. What is that about?
Stay safe and out of pain. Get a good night’s sleep. That might do a world of good.
I think Opher with all due respect, you are forgetting one important thing – the Muslims do not want to integrate. They create their own communities, they will not speak English, they want to have their own schools, yes there are some Muslims who accept Britains Laws but there are far too many who refuse to mix. This Town where I live and every other Town, City how many Mosques or Muslim Centres Radicalise young men. Easy young fellows unemployed, on drugs/booze they give them money and they have easy pickings. This Country will not speak out and amit the Terrorists are muslims, not all Muslims but certain sections. I was Banned on Twitter last night for saying “The Terrorist was a Muslim”, yet supporters of that bomber could go on Twitter and show support and spread their hatred?
I agree with you. Too many do not integrate. It is a problem that needs addressing. We have to find ways of integrating them. It is not good to have enclaves. If they live here they should accept the values of our society. We need the Muslim community to stand up and condemn these actions – which, I am pleased to say, they have done in Manchester. We need they to put a stop to extremist clerics spreading hate. We need them to shop the extremists.
That is why setting up more religious schools is a big mistake. We want them out of those schools that already exist and into the community.
The mosques and madrassas need policing and any extremists kicked out or locked up.
that’s my view.
But there is another big problem Opher, everyone is so scared to say the word “MUSLIM” in connection with Terrorists, goodness sake we need to speak the truth. When the IRA were bombing their way into History, not once did anyone in this Country shy away from saying the IRA were Irish, filthy names were called in respect to the Irish. But now, oh dear no we must not say MUSLIM with Terrorism, that is what the Terrorists precisely are Muslims. As I said I got banned on Twitter but I’ll carry on fighting I’ll carrying on pushing the truth (despite the pain!!)
Well I am saying it on wordpress and nobody has shut me down yet. I think my blog goes out on facebook and twitter. We’ll see what happens.
I hope you aren’t suffering too much Anna. When do you get your results? I suppose you tried a TENS machine. It worked wonders on Liz’s foot. She was in agony with it and in three days it was better.
Muslim banks are part of Islamic Law, as ‘good’ Muslims should never place his money with any bank that does business with non-Muslims and specifically Jews. You will if you look hard enough see many Islamic banks in UK, usually in areas of dense Muslim population.
Islam is against usury ie. charging interest and making money from lending money. That’s the main reason they have separate banks. All the Muslims I know, and I know many, use high street banks to bank their money but they often borrow money from family members rather than taking out a bank loan.
Sounds reasonable to me. But are Muslim banks open to non-Muslims Bede?
I would think so. Have no knowledge of any non-Muslim who has tried to bank with one and I don’t know of any Muslim who banks with one.
What people who complain of non-integration don’t understand is that most of the Muslims living in the UK come from Pakistan, India or Bangladesh. They come from areas comprised of small village communities where interaction like marriage is usually confined within the community. For example most of the Muslims in Bradford have their roots in a village called Mirpur (which I have visited several times). Marriage will normally be arranged between partners who originate from the same village and not from some neighbouring town or village. That “village mentality” has transferred to the UK with the workers (usually poorly educated mill workers) who came here in the 60s. Slowly that mentality is breaking down but it will take several generations to disappear or even reduce considerably.
I find that often the South Asian community in the UK is more conservative and inward looking than the communities from where they originate. For example, I see more burqas in Bradford than I have ever seen in Pakistan. In Pakistan I did not experience any segregation of the sexes which you will find in the UK often.
You have to consider than many immigrants to the UK in the 50s and 60s faced considerable hostility from the indigenous population on their arrival, not just those from South Asia but also those from the Caribbean so is it any surprise that they tended to construct their own communities?
I don’t think it is surprising at all Bede. It must be very daunting coming to a new country with vastly different customs, language and attitude. Especially if you are from a small village. It takes time to adapt. What I an saying is that we need to assist that integration as much as we can.
I think the burqa has become a political thing. Time it was put to bed.
Yes, in the UK it has probably been used to demonstrate a political point regarding identity. There is a common misconception that women wear burqas as a result of oppression from their husbands. Generally I don’t think that is true in the UK. Elsewhere eg. Saudi Arabia social pressures compel it. The Saudi women I know don’t wear burqas here. I have noticed an increase in the wearing of hijabs amongst women of Pakistani origin in the UK. That may be another identity sign but also it may have become fashionable because there are some trendy hijabs on sale. I don’t see the wearing of a hijab as much different from the wearing of a headscarf by British women in the 50s & 60s.
Returning to the question of Islamic banks, I held bank accounts in Tunisian banks and I was never asked to prove that I was a Muslim before opening an account. Tunisia is however an enlightened Islamic state and the banks pay interest on your savings.
You cannot reasonably force integration on people. Progress will come naturally. There are marriages between Pakistani-origin women and men and British men/women. I could have married one myself. I had many proposals from Pakistan when I went there. I have dated women from Pakistani backgrounds in the UK. You must understand that you are trying to overturn centuries of culture and tradition. Pakistanis, for example, traditionally marry someone from their family clan often a cousin. That is changing slowly especially amongst the better educated.
I am OK with Hijabs it is burqas that I find abhorrent.
I would like to think that the banks are open to anyone. That is how it should be in Britain and all countries.
I would not be in favour of forcing integration. I do think that we should go out of our way to provide situations to facilitate it. Normal schools are a powerful force in integrating students. In my view religious schools are just another form of segregation and indoctrination – a big step backwards.
Numbers 1 and 6 are linked and are very important. There should be no faith schools and no separation of children – as future citizens they must learn to work alongside all.
I totally agree.
What is it about a burqa that you find abhorrent? Some women feel more comfortable wearing a burqa in public in front of strangers. You may find that hard to believe but it’s true. You should respect other cultures even though they differ widely from your own. I have no problem with a burqa provided it’s not being used to deceive or used in a situation like teaching where facial communication is important. What’s the difference between a roomful of burqa-clad women and a masked ball?
Well I can’t imagine I’d ever want to go to a masked ball and I don’t like the idea of that either.
I am tolerant and I do respect other people’s culture. But that does not stop me from protesting about things I find abhorrent. I do not respect the Chinese boiling and skinning dogs alive, the sharia practice of amputating hands and I do not like burqas. I am sure some women, through lack of confidence or out of habit, feel secure in one. But the face is a powerful communicator in all situations. When it is covered up it makes people uneasy – they cannot read the messages. Too many countries force women to wear them and there is a strong family/cultural expectation. To encase women in stifling black from head to foot shrieks of misogyny to me.
No easy answers as usual. But to be trying to ameliorate a problem is already progress.
That’s true Bumba.