What with Brexit looming, 1200 more bureaucrats being employed to deal with the mess, the uncertainties for the economy, the effect on relationships with Europe, the threat of thousands of financial services going abroad, the effects on the environment, human rights laws, worker’s rights, future trade agreements, further austerity, effects on trade, effects on public services…………….. it looks a mess.
I certainly don’t like the tone and harmful policies of this exceedingly right-wing government. Cameron was bad enough.
Then there’s the NHS and Schools.
On top of that we have Trump and the division and hatred being stirred up there!
I need something to stop me pessimistically staring into the black hole of the future! I need a dose of Roy Harper pouring vitriol on the establishment and gushing the most beautiful crafted love songs!
As I am still reeling from my house move I shall dig out a few of my favourites from the past.
But for now here is the most beautiful love song: Forever! (from the first album)
Don’t you think we’re Forever?
We’re just spinning leaves
In the flight of a dawn, little girl
Falling through an eternal horizon of time
But as we lie here I’d like to think
That all we’ve got will be ours forever
Don’t you think we’re forever
Don’t you think we’re forever
I can hear a voice
On the wings of a dream, little girl
Melting me into love as it touches my heart
But sheltered in the distance of your sleep
Is all that I could love in a lifetime
Don’t you think we’re forever
Don’t you think we’re forever
Open your eyes
To the call of the winds, little girl
Can’t you here them all saying I’ll always be yours
Lying in the misty morning sun
The pillow of the night still beneath you
Don’t you think we’re forever
Don’t you think we’re forever
What’s threatening about “thousands” of financial services going abroad? Thousands sounds like far too many to me. Good riddance to them. There’s an opportunity to start again.
Except that the stupid governments of Thatcher and Blair ran down manufacturing and put all our eggs into finance. If they go abroad our economy goes south. If the economy goes it is austerity, privatisation and goodbye NHS, social services and schools. So while I hate bankers and the inequality I can see the dependency.
So many, too many sell crap. They sell future’s markets.
That’s where the real money is. This has nothing to do with anything of the NHS, social services and schools.
Government monetary budgets cannot be gambled with by law. This money has nothing to do with these types of financial institutions, therefore, I’m not too sure why you are worried about it. This is the industry that’s full of these lazy assed jerks who do nothing but devise complicated and convoluted investment schemes and cream off the top.
And the taxes that come into the exchequer pay for the services. Without the money they cannot provide. This bunch of right-wing vandals has already stolen money from schools, councils, social services and hospitals with their pay freezes, budget cuts, and pension robbing under the guise of ‘all in it together’ austerity. No austerity at the top end though is there? Brexit will shrink the economy and create misery for millions – but I bet the top end will still do great!
Yes those lazy jerks need sorting out and greater equality brought in but if they up and leave we’re snookered! That’s why we need a more global approach. We’re being ripped off by this system and its blackmail free-for-all. The multinationals and fat-cats are having a field day.
There’s one problem with your theory Opher. Most of them are registered off-shore. They don’t pay taxes here.
I look at the figures for the money coming into the economy. There’s a mighty lot paid here.
I really don’t know what you are talking about. I think you must be looking at figures from another sector cos it sure ain’t this one.
The UK economy has long been a dominant player in financial services, along with the US, but growth in the sector between 2006 and 2009 was particularly rapid. By 2009, the sector accounted for 10% of UK GDP, the highest of all G7 economies. The second highest was Canada at 6.7%, and the lowest was Germany at 3.9%
2006 to 2009 was quite some time ago, certainly in terms of finance and GDP. Certainly irrelevant to talk of that now and use it as an example to back your whatever you’re trying to say.
We don’t even talk about “G7” anymore and haven’t done for a long time. It’s been known as the “G8” for as long as I remember.
Whatever, I really couldn’t care less.
So you really think that the financial sector is no longer contributing 10% of the GDP? That’s a lot of readies.
I was in a bit of a rush so that was what came to hand. I reckon it is probably in the same ballpark now even though that is seven or eight years ago. Glad I was able to put you right. I could delve and find the actual contribution today in billions.
But you were asserting that it is OK for them to go off to Germany, France and the Netherlands. That we’d be well rid. Now you’re saying you can’t care less.
Why don’t you use your great news capabilities to find out what the sum would be today in 100s of billions if they did all up and go?
I’d be interested.
Here you are Andrew – a bit more recent – In 2014, financial and insurance services contributed £126.9 billion in gross value added (GVA) to the UK economy, 8.0% of the UK’s total GVA. London accounted for 50.5% of the total financial and insurance sector GVA in the UK in 2012. The sector’s contribution to UK jobs is around 3.4%. Trade in financial services makes up a substantial proportion of the UK’s trade surplus in services. In 2013/14, the banking sector alone contributed £21.4 billion to UK tax receipts in corporation tax, income tax, national insurance and through the bank levy.
That funds a lot of schools and hospitals!
Opher, I have quite a bit of knowledge about this business sector. I have probably made and lost more money with it in the last 25 years than you earned. I trade every Thursday night on the Hang Seng. It’s very interesting and exciting times at the moment with Asian stocks. For me at least, it is indeed a very happy new year. The year of the Rooster looks promising.
Seems that you weren’t too sure what GDP actually was.
It contains monies that haven’t been capitalised. They are evaluated by the final tally of shares multiplied by share prices at the period’s point of closure. They are not strictly a financial contribution, more an evaluation of in lieu.
However, I’m not measuring straws.
I see you have revised that in your second post, by quoting GVA. It’s not the same thing at all and a different calculation. Therefore, I’m not sure what kind of correlation you were attempting to make here? There again, Economics was never a subject of any fortitude for you, was it?
The Gross Value Added (GVA) and Gross Domestic Product (GDP) give a picture of economic activity from producers (supply side) and consumers (demand side) perspectives respectively. Both of the measures need not match and there could be a sharp divergence due to presence of Net Indirect Taxes ( NIT= indirect taxes-subsidies) which are accounted in GDP calculations (GDP is sum of GVA and NIT).
But GVA clearly carries greater significance for various reasons.
GVA provides better measure of economic activity. Because GDP can record a sharp increase just on the account of increased tax collections due to better compliance/coverage and not necessarily due to increase in output.
GVA is a better reflection of the productivity of the producers as it excludes the indirect taxes which could distort the production process. However, it can also be argued that GVA is distorted due to presence of subsidies. It usually is.
A sector-wise breakdown provided by the GVA measure can (in theory) help the policymakers to decide which sectors need incentives/ stimulus or vice versa.
However, GDP still remains a key measure to make cross country analysis and comparing the incomes of different economies.
Yes, money is made in this sector.
There have never been so many different banks, investment firms and futures ventures represented in the UK before. For some reason we don’t seem to see this reflected in revenue collection. Too many are registered off-shore and unfortunately there’s too little tax to collect.
Your imaginary assumption that the whole financial world will simply float off to Holland or wherever is ridiculous.
You are once again thinking in an out of control hysterical manner.
I think you misunderstood me first time around.
When I said that I really couldn’t care less, I actually meant that I really couldn’t care less.
Boring again Andrew.
I don’t have the time right now. That was all I could find quickly. It illustrates the point that you were talking crap. The financial services, whether we like it or not, play a crucial role in our economy. If they rush, or trickle, away we will suffer greatly.
That is the point.
All it illustrated is that you weren’t too sure about what you thought you were talking about.
What was crap was a 7 years old piece of info relevant to absolutely nothing!
What were you doing there?
I don’t ever waste my time with the hypothetical.
No business ever does. You can’t calculate GDP or GVA on the hypothetical.
Yes, Opher. I know the role played by the financial services.
They come and they go. Some survive, some go bust. Some expand, some get sold on.
Whatever, there will always be financial services.
The reason being – there are 45 million potential customers in UK.
Nobody is going to cut themselves off from that.
That illustrates the point that you do talk complete crap.
Again, your naivety surpasses all previous records of levels of beyond belief.
Come off it Andrew. Talk sense.
Britain is the financial centre of the world – it generates huge sums of money for the country. We’ve invested all our eggs in it. If they go abroad we are suffer. You are beginning to sound silly. You are so caught up in trying to prove your point you miss what is obvious. Ignore it at your peril. You are blind to all the problems and gloss over them by diverting onto semantics and trivia (along with silly childish put-downs). Not impressed.
I’m not impressed with your belief that Britain is the financial capital of the world. Wrong.
I really couldn’t care that much about the UK financial business. A lot of it is ephemeral rip-off scavenger and really their existence is quite unnecessary.
I also don’t believe that they will be leaving in quite the numbers that you prophesied.
I have no investments in UK. If other people do that’s their problem. Usually UK finance pay-offs are too low.
They’re fine for borrowing, but not for investing in.
If anyone is caught up in anything it is you with your crumby pension. Had you been a bit smarter you would never ever have put all your eggs in that basket for losers.
You should have looked at the Asian markets and split your pension fund and put half of it into this and made some real money for yourself, rather than expect the government to do that for you. You’re at the very end of the line as far as they are concerned.
I’m not too sure what you meant by trivia.
I gave you a clear and concise precise of the difference between GDP and GVA. It was yourself who had produced GDP results from 7 years ago and then GVA from 2 years ago. I’m not too sure what you were trying to prove with your point there. This was certainly not a particularly good method of trying to prove your point as you were playing with both chalk and cheese. However, ignorance is no excuse.
Andrew – it is obvious to me that both of us are somewhere up on the autistic spectrum. We both are obsessive and collectors. But yours is more pronounced than mine. You are OCD about facts and details where I’m much more les affaire. I’m concerned with the principles and overall picture. It doesn’t matter a jot to me whether Trump’s daddy gave him a billion, a hundred billion or a million. The important thing to me is that he was bankrolled. You are obsessed with the details and facts and to me they are trivia. The important thing is the big picture. So if I don’t research and get every fact lined up it drives you crazy. So constantly you are diving off into minutiae and losing sight of the gist of the post.
This latest one is a good example. I merely accessed information to give an illustration of the importance of the financial sector to the wealth of the country. I am not confusing GVA and GDP. It just so happened that the only illustrations I could find easily happened to use those criteria. They demonstrate the importance of the financial sector but once again, instead of accepting the huge contribution it makes to the economy and the inherent danger posed by our crucial financial centre relocating (which doesn’t sit with your all things rosy with Brexit view) you veer into a pointless sidetrack on GDP and GVA. It is obvious to me that they are not the same. It doesn’t need spelling out. But they do both indicate the importance to the country of the Financial Sector.
I despise bankers and the greed and selfishness of this stupid system but I can see that the country is hugely dependent on the bastards for the wealth they generate. Somehow we have to find a way of weaning ourselves off them and taxing them in order to create a fairer society without driving them away.
I don’t share your view that we’re better off shot of them because they fund the public services. If they disappear we have a big, big hole and huge austerity and cuts.
One of the reasons I am opposed to Brexit is the financial impact it is going to have on the economy. The cost of pulling out is enormous just in terms of extra bureaucrats, civil servants and lawyers. A field day for lawyers again! I think firms will exit. I do not think we will get good trade deals quickly. I think we will have decades of uncertainty. I think the economy will suffer. The dive in the pound is already hitting prices. It will produce massive hardship, cuts and austerity.
Top that up with all those businesses trying to backtrack on human rights and workers rights so that they can maximise their profits and you have misery.
That’s without the environment, xenophobic, emotional, terrorism, and crime considerations.
Now – nothing is black and white. There are no certainties. There are opinions and a good grown-up debate of the pros and cons is great. All this ‘Project Fear’, ‘False News’ juvenilia is just masking the real issues.
Speak for autistic yourself! What a damned bloody cheek you’ve got.
You are the guy that sat there downloading tons of shit on mp3 off the internet, without a clue as to what he was actually downloading and filling up over 700 and something files with it – for instance – as per your claims with Jimi Hendrix stuff.
Wasn’t it you who made claim to have filled up 2 computers with this mp3 rubbish? That must have taken you a very long time to do. I wouldn’t dream of wasting a fucking second of my life on such a vacuous venture.
I just happen to have a natural ability with accuracy. My job dictated that as a must. Everything about it was about intricate detail. There is no flexibility when hundreds of people are involved and very large sums of money at stake. Accuracy is King. There are many, many industries that require the same levels of discipline and it is by no means unusual. It would be if you were a person that had never experienced it.
I certainly don’t live my life by these rules.
You’re a creature of habit – same thing all the time.
I’m the absolute opposite of that. I hate the same thing all the time.
That’s why I liked my job as I wasn’t looking at the same people and same 4 walls all day, every day.
Don’t tar me with your autistic brush.
My point was if you are going to make a point, make sure your point is correct.
And you talk about the big picture? Are you fucking joking? You are the most insular and myopic person. You say one thing one week, another the next, depending upon memory/batteries.
That’s a bullshit claim you’ve now just made about Trump.
Your whole post was on the premise that he’d been “given a billion”. He wasn’t.
Going by you take of being bankrolled, therefore, that includes myself, my brother and most of my friends as all of us had to get financial help from our parents when we were all starting out in our chosen careers.
Is that a strange concept for you?
Is this against some kind of set of rules for you or what?
What don’t you like about it?
Is it principle in general or the fact that some people have parents that can help them out a bit?
What is your actual point here?
Then your next post was your claim that he’d been “made bankrupt”. An incredibly naive claim and utterly false. And you talk about the “big picture”?
I told you all about that back then. You would struggle to justify it as much now as you could back then.
Yes, we knew Brexit would cost money. It cost money to be in the EU. It will balance out.
I’ve said all I want to on Brexit.
I don’t share your hysteria.
I know we will achieve much better trade deals than we ever had with the restrictions imposed by the EU.
I think your assumption regards ‘Fake News’ is a trifle weak. There is nothing whatsoever trivial about this as it isn’t masking, as it is manufactured to subvert. Subversion is an entirely different thing than masking. Subversion is obviously a far more dangerous method of manipulation. It is only now that we are beginning to learn a little bit more of some of the truth and from where the origins stem from. There’s an ever growing terrible smell coming from the Clinton camp.
Never mind Andrew. I don’t think you’ll ever understand.
Yes it is a novel concept to me. My parents didn’t have any money. My claim is that Trump has all the arrogance and petulance of the son of a rich kid who has had it too easy and is too used to getting his own way. Like you he gets abusive when challenged. It’s a defence mechanism.
There’s a bit of a stink coming from the Trump camp too! I don’t suppose you’ve noticed.
Oh, I understand all right. I understand that you are blind to the facts and full of hot air.
You build a deck of cards with no foundations.
Why?
It’s just as easy to ask a question, rather than make a statement that you didn’t bother to check out for authenticity.
I don’t know why you do that to yourself.
You’re asking for it.
If you were elsewhere, you’d be getting pulled up on exactly the very same basis by a hundred people just like me, who will be questioning your bullshit.
Is that a surprise to you?
It probably would be and I’d advise you not to go near these blog sites, as believe me, you would not be able to handle these people. They would crucify you relentlessly.
I don’t. I just tell you I disagree and the reasons for such.
But you can’t handle that, so you’ve zero chance elsewhere.
Never mind Opher, that you remain completely blind to the lack of backbone within your posts.
If you can’t see what’s missing from that extremely simple perspective, then there’s nothing much more to be said really.
My point was the fact that your posts were bullshit. They were false. They were not in truth as described by you.
If you can’t see the difference between one million dollars and one billion dollars – well again, there’s nothing much more to be said either.
When challenged Opher?
When am I ever challenged?
Challenged by you?
What about?
I don’t make stupid misinformed comments that could ever lead to me being challenged in the first place.
As I said above, count yourself lucky you’re not being crucified and pitchforked. – No, not that kind of pitchfork!
The forum pitchfork – if you know what that is.
Very sad Andrew. But never mind. You go loving Trump and Brexit and coming out with your arrogant pedantic assertions.
You have the gold medal for arrogant proclamations without any evidence or foundations, bleating on like a typical useless liberal who holds their hands up holding the reigns in innocence after the horse has bolted the stable.
You know sfa about big business. I’ve always said that about you and I always will.
Go back to school and learn about how it works. That would be your smartest move, rather than criticise me, who was right about Brexit and right about Trump.
I feel sorry for you being so myopic.
Fine Andrew. Have you got a big enough trumpet? Perhaps a mirror might help?
I don’t make bullshit proclamations with no foundation, wallow in fantasy, or just make things up as I go along to suit myself.
Everything I’ve said can be verified.
I really don’t think this is the case with yourself.
I don’t understand why you persist on doing that.
Because that is the way I am Andrew. I express what I feel. Life is more than a set of ‘facts’. One can connect intuitively with life and ‘feel’ what is right and what is wrong. I don’t need a ton of selected facts to do that. I know what I think and feel. I’m quite happy for people to put forward reasoned arguments. That’s why I blog. My proclamations are no more bullshit than yours. Some of your views are complete rubbish. Your silly assertions that my disgust at Trump’s assault on women (verified by himself) is of no consequence and I’m a Mary Whitehouse and prudish because I don’t agree that it is OK to go around grabbing women by the pussy. Absurd and unpleasant. You defend walls, racism and deny everything that doesn’t fit with your view on Brexit and Trump. Your views on the importance of the financial sector – complete bullshit. Yet you can get up on your high horse and spout personal abuse and put-downs. Even if you were right, which you often aren’t, it is a rudeness of manner and bullying attitude that carries no weight with me. It makes you and your arguments all the less and reflects badly. It’s a shame really because we have much in common and a great deal to communicate and enjoy. You spoil it.
But Opher, you cannot “express what you feel” about situations with a history of event or people. You can only “express what you feel” on matters appertaining to yourself or nearest and dearest etc.
Otherwise you leave yourself wide open.
For example, with that kind of reasoning it’s a bit like saying “I don’t like German people, because the weather in Germany is too cold for me”.
Where do you draw the line between the facts and truth of something and of what you would prefer it to be?
I would contest your theory on the decision making process by method of “feel”. That’s completely unfounded. What it actually is determined by is not feel but fear. Your innermost fears are making the decisions for you.
Everything I say about any event or anybody can be verified. For you to state here and now after multitudes of my posts that they are “bullshit” is in itself ridiculous bullshit.
You can go and source any and everything I’ve ever said about anything.
What I don’t do is make ludicrous and exaggerated claims as you are too readily prone to do. When you get pulled up about it, you react like it’s not important and just water off a duck’s back sorta thing. I’m not so sure I buy that.
When did I ever defend racism? That is bullshit.
But I’m not against some Latino gun-toting gangsters getting chucked back home to Puerto Rico. That isn’t racism.
You didn’t read the post properly did you?
I said I don’t care about the financial sector. I did not argue with you that they do not represent around 10% of financial revenues. I said I don’t care about them.
How can you determine that as bullshit?
I don’t care about them because I don’t like how they operate. I have zero respect for these people and the more that come to financial ruin and liquidation the better as far as I am concerned.
I couldn’t give a tinker’s cuss what Trump did in his private life previously. Nobody ever got hired in a job for what they did in their private life.
If that were the case the whole fucking world would be unemployed, including yourself.
I support him for his business credentials, business knowledge and overall business acumen.
That’s it, nothing more and nothing less.
That’s all I’ve ever said on behalf of the guy.
I understand that he hasn’t been lily white. I’m all too aware of that and I also doubt that we will be seeing a repeat of such errant behaviour during his tenure.
One thing is for sure, he has never been a murderous criminal responsible for thousands of deaths and destabilising democratically elected governments, or running around threatening to nuke countries.
Your lack of understand with this sort of behaviour is beyond me.
Perhaps it might be advantageous to watch the heavily advertised forthcoming documentary that features the manifestation of all the anti-Trump propaganda.
It might be interesting and sheds some light on some stuff.
Whatever, even some heavy duty liberal people have a few things to say about it all on other media outlets.
As I’ve already explained to you repeatedly, too often, I have a completely different understanding and experience of the EU than you.
Whilst you were languishing in sunny Hull, sitting and talking about it, I was running an import retail business in the EU.
I really don’t think that you fully realise what goes on in many other EU member states. The disparities and abuses are clear.
There’s 10,000 overstuffed headless chicken EU civil servants who are tripping over the weight of their wallets.
We’ve got hospitals geared for 100,000 people with demands from 130,000 people put on them. We’ve got completely out of control immigration by all sorts. We’ve got Africans coming in from countries nobody ever heard of with a raggle troop of kids in tow. Our social services and public housing services are being swamped by unprecedented demands for instant permanent homes by people that can barely prove their eligibility to even be in the country, never mind claiming sanctuary. We’ve been knocked into touch by the most lunatic left wing pseudo liberal / socialists. People with brains the size of a pea.
We’ve attracted a whole load of human garbage from eastern Europe. Criminals intent on further criminality and the reason they came here was because the profits are higher. Our prisons are stuffed to the brim with this garbage.
They are running around our roads without licenses or insurance and therefore, immediately responsible for the increase costs of motor insurance because of the increased surge in accident claims caused by these people.
I really do detest these people and would like to see them all being sent back as soon as possible.
The funny thing is I don’t ever hear of people from the UK all queuing up for work in Estonia or the likes. I wonder why not? I was under the impression it was all the same, that people could travel to wherever they liked within the EU, and receive the same job opportunities
the same rates of pay
the same rates of taxation
the same rates of national insurance
the same level of personal benefits
the same standards of living
the same standards of housing
the same level of medical care
the same standards of school education
the same standards of university education
the same level of social services support
the same level of public transport
the same level of standards with public road networks
the same level of personal safety
the same level of standards with policing and fire brigade
I can’t imagine why there is not the same level of attraction to go there as we have to come here. Countries like Estonia have been democratic since about 1990. I’m absolutely sure that the people who run the EU are on top of the job and ever since its formation in 1993, in no way could any such disparity as described above ever be in fact the situation. I know that I am wrong to cast such dispersion and that suffice to say the EU is most brilliantly managed, fair and transparent and democratically elected. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.
It would be curmudgeonly of me to suggest otherwise.
It ain’t just what you say it’s the way that you say it.
I can understand what you are saying about a number of issues. I say the same thing. But it’s like when you’ve got a cold don’t take a dose of malaria.
Your stance and the way you express it merely pushes people in the other direction.
I know that you don’t understand the intuitive approach because it is totally against the fact driven way you look at things. I don’t. I look at Trump and smell an unpleasant, obnoxious bastard. You like his business acumen. I despise the man and all he says and stands for.
Likewise with Brexit. I can see all the problems with the EU but the problems outside it are bigger.
That’s all.
Reblogged this on Opher's World and commented:
A bit of sense and passion
‘Tis a pity it wasn’t two-way as clearly displayed by your reply after I had to explain in albeit simplistic terms the differences between GDP & GVA that you had clearly not fully understood.
You accused me of being “boring” and of “autism” in a vain attempt to relinquish your false premise of actually knowing what either GDP or GVA actually were. By all means most people have heard the term GDP, but very, very few can properly describe exactly what it is and for that matter why we use it – and you obviously weren’t one of them.
It’s a pointless exercise as no matter what information unfolds itself in your direction, not one iota of it ever computes. It’s like talking to a brick wall or a manikin dummy. My girlfriend, who laughs herself bright red with your stuff, reckons you remind her of the comedy actress who plays the schoolgirl teenage brat with the catch phrase “Do I look bothered?” with some of your replies, this being one of them. She reckons you spent far too much time in your life with teenage brats and it’s rubbed off. God, I hope not, but she may have a valid point there.
I’m too busy these days with one thing or another, plus if I do spend any time on topical affairs it’s elsewhere with those that actually understand that “facts” are a prerequisite to understanding. Whilst we all harbour feelings and wants, they little matter in the formal equation of the decision making process.
Intuition can be governed by innermost fears and with some people it is definitely more prevalent than with others. I understood that very early on and have always been extremely wary and careful to never let it manifest to the detriment of good reason. It’s always there in the background, shouting out red flags – so to speak, but never do I ever let my intuition make my final decisions. That’s the life for a gambler. I never engage in “chances are…” etc. Which is what most people seem to do with their valuable pension funds, where basically, they willingly give it away into the hands of those, including government, who squander it’s intrinsic value wantonly. Christ, I could see that coming when I was 19 years old looking at the deductions on my P60. Whilst I couldn’t make changes to my employers contributions, I certainly could with my own which enabled me to walk away from life’s burden of having to report to any other when I reached 50. I made more money with my pension fund in 30 years than joe bloggs does in 90. To do that required a hell of a lot of facts and fuck all to do with feelings and intuition.
I really wish there was this imaginary money tree that Corbyn fantasied. Thankfully, the majority once again weren’t duped into thinking that wizards do in fact exist.