These are the results of the referendum. It was close. The population of Britain is 60 million. 46,500,000 were entitled to vote. 17,410,742 voted us out.
What does that all mean?
Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)
Total Electorate: 46,500,001
Turnout: 72.2%
Well under half of those who were eligible to vote voted out.
Just over half of those who voted wanted us out for a number of reasons – terrorism, immigration, sovereignty, hatred of EU, economy, protest against establishment, bureaucracy, undemocratic aspects of EU, loss of hope, more trade with the rest of the world.
Just under half wanted us to stay in – collaboration with EU, multiculturalism, economic prosperity, fighting terrorism and crime, environmental collaboration, outward looking, caring, more global perspective, bigger part in the world, compassion.
Since the referendum there has been an upsurge in nationalism and hate crime. The pound has dived putting petrol and other prices up and there has been a lot of division and belligerence. The worst economic shock will come if we actually leave. As a vociferous remainer I have had to put up with abuse – being described as a whinging remoaner or remainder and as being undemocratic. Well that’s alright. I am not only moaning I am furious and in despair of my country and what it is becoming. I do not like nationalism, isolationism or xenophobia or right-wing politics, and despise the licence it has given to that small element of racist thugs who have abused people of colour or those stemming from the EU.
I am now looking to a dismal future if we do go ahead and pull out. The cost of Brexit looks to be in the region of £26-£46 Billion. That makes our £8.5 Billion contribution to the EU look a bargain. The result of Brexit looks to be years of restricted growth, austerity, job losses and public service cuts. You can bet that the ones at the top won’t suffer!! Worse than that is the fact that we now have an extreme right-wing government and an empowered xenophobic segment of the populace who are affecting the ethos of the country. The atmosphere is not pleasant.
I have always stood for a caring, tolerant, and compassionate society. That is what I continue to fight for.
I noted that Nigel Farage said, when he thought he was losing, that the battle would go on. It will – because it is the whole ethos of our country that is at stake. When we lost general elections we did not stop fighting for a return to a Labour government; we continued to fight for our principles. That is what is required – we have to stand up for what we believe.
For me I hope that there might be a way to prevent this looming disaster. Brexit will be a great blow to everything Britain stands for. I hate to see it become an insular, fear-ridden, hate-filled, isolated country living in a past that never existed. People soon forget the evils carried out in the name of Empire and the poverty, inequality and racism extant in the fifties and sixties. We’ve moved on and become much better than that.
My hope is that sanity prevails; that parliament and the people take a good hard look at the prospect of economic doom and social division that is looming (now that the lies have been exposed), and apply a democratic vote to keep us in.
There are far better ways of dealing with the undemocratic aspects of the EU, terrorism and mass migration. We don’t have to plunge the country into chaos, division and economic peril.
For now the government has to find a path through this turmoil and hatred. At present 50% of the population do not feel represented! There is no attempt to unite or find compromise – only a jubilant crowing from the arrogant Brexiteers who belligerently, cheered on by the likes of the Mail, Express and Telegraph, bellow every time someone raises an objection to this suicide note.
A tolerant, compassionate and caring ethos is one worth fighting for! You can hurl abuse all you like but I’m sticking to my principles! I’m not moaning – I’m shouting my thoughts, feelings and beliefs! I want a fair world!!
Geez, Opher… Just change a few of the names and I could have written most of that about here. And I’m like you. I’m getting tired of being told to shut up. I AM NOT THE ONE SPEWING ALL THE HATRED in THIS country. There is something wrong in countries where it’s ok to hate and abuse openly.
It’s not ok in the UK to hate and abuse openly. On the contrary to do so is to commit a criminal offence. You need to travel to somewhere like West Virginia, USA where a public official can get away with describing openly the First Lady as an “ape in heels”. If she had uttered that in the UK , she would have been prosecuted .
Yes – but in practice most examples of hatred and intolerance are unreported. It is the casual attitudes that are most repugnant. They stem from the ethos of the country. We’ve had a shift.
Could not agree with you more. In fact there are far too many rules in the UK. I have not witnessed anyone being abused, and all the delivery men I have from “Ocado” are either Polish/Turkish/Cypriot you name it and I always make a point of asking where they are from and have they ever received any abuse, they tell me the same thing “no”. What I am sick of is if being referred to as racist or thought of as racist because I voted to come out of Europe. The new First Lady, has one problem she is very elegant and beautiful and there are always those so jealous and bitter. America has a new President Elect and we here in the UK have finally voted to come out of Europe – all those that oppose such decisions made by the public need to accept that they lost. Those here in the Uk who are still carrying on with their vindictiveness need to grow up and stop bullying people.
We need laws to protect people’s rights so that they are not open to being abused. You might not have heard of cases of abuse but I certainly have. Surely you are not suggesting that because a small number you have spoken to haven’t received abuse that there isn’t any? The cases have gone up 41% and the majority do not get reported. The five instances I personally know of were not reported. There is a shift in attitude.
The First Lady??? You are surely not referring to Mrs May?? She is neither elegant nor beautiful. But how she looks is immaterial. It is her obnoxious policies that are ugly. She has more than one problem – she has a raft of them – mostly extreme right-wing dogma.
Whoever wins elections does not prevent people from opposing policies that will greatly harm the country or damage the ethos that has taken so long to build. I do not like austerity, inequality, environmental abuse, uncaring cuts, poorer public services and privatisation. I do not like any policies that skew things to the top end, create selfish greed or throw people into despair. I do not like policies that encourage fanaticism and terrorism. I do not agree with policies that decimate wild-life or damage the environment and will continue to oppose them.
In my view both Brexit and Trump are disasters for the environment, economy and international relationships. We will all live to rue those decisions and none more than the poor and needy and wild-life.
Opher, your logic is perverse. If most incidents of hatred are unreported, how the hell (1) do you know about them and (2) how can you quantify them?
Bernard, you said it. Welcome to the chimpanzee’s tea party where employment of logic and hard facts are rewarded with slim pickings. Hard facts are none too welcomed by some round here.
Bernard – it is not perverse – I know of at least five instances of hate-crime that should have been reported but weren’t. They are exceedingly difficult to quantify on a national basis because they are not reported. But anecdotally one hears the stories and know that it is going on.
It is similar to a lot of crime. Much goes unreported. The present sexual abuse in football has been unreported for decades.
I do not find that surprising.
Depends who is making up the ‘facts’ Andrew. Much of what you deploy are selected to fit your mind-set aren’t they?
There are many views but few facts.
Are you having a laugh – look at the top of your post header – full of facts!
When I do give facts they are true facts and very easily verified were you not so lazy to do so.
They are also always absolutely relevant.
And you know this.
There’s more than one squib in the box, matey.
As you well know – facts change – statistics change – history changes. We are not dealing with hard facts. Take Trump – the numbers voting was probably way out. There was all manner of shenanigans going on with vote rigging. How can you trust anything?
What is much more interesting are the views and opinions.
I was in reply to your bullshit claim that my facts aren’t real and that I supposedly make them up.
You should be bloody well ashamed of yourself for ever uttering such.
You’ve lost a hell of a lot of brownie points there.
You will never ever once in your sweet life ever catch me serving up bullshit facts. They are always the published, and as accurate as can be ascertained.
Now, whether a government makes them up in the first place, as I have often intimated that they do in fact do so, is an entirely different matter and one that is well outwith either my, your’s or anybody’s control.
I didn’t say you make them up – I said you select them. If they don’t suit – like the 41% increase in hate-crime – you reject them. That’s what humans do. You emotionally connect with a view and then seek out the evidence that supports it. We all do that.
Yet one minute you make your bed on the premise of this “41%” statistic, purple in the face that it is true, yet finish off here now by saying that facts change, stats change etc.
So why rely on this one in the first place when it so obviously just might be one that is perverted and manipulated?
Yet you can’t get your head round somebody saying “mmm, maybe not…” just because you believed what they reported and want you to believe. Again. No questions asked?
Talking of which, whatever happened to the poster here who I replied to with a load of questions regarding some Jo Cox comments they had made?
They answered me with total silence, because my questions had made their reply impossible in support of their original statement.
It never ceases to amaze me how much people have to say about something without actually knowing anything about it.
How do they get through life?
What’s worse is that they have a vote.
Well I for one don’t believe the 41%. It’s not a fact. I think it’s much higher than that.
I think it was your belligerent attitude that ensured there was no response. A lot of people don’t like the aggression. They opt out.
But too true about the voting. It’s incredible isn’t it? Are you suggesting that there should be a mechanism to weed out the uninformed?
The truth of the matter is that this situation isn’t nearly as bad as what Opher would have you believe. Yes, there have been instances but nothing to reflect anything on the scale that has been insinuated. It was a big media deal immediately post-Brexit, where almost every single incident hit the headlines. That’s all stopped now and such media hysteria has calmed down to where it was before – ie. no reports whatsoever.
Not my perception Andrew. I hope the hate does die away but I detect a change in atmosphere.
The daily news reports – or complete lack of them – suggest otherwise.
For someone who distrusts the media that is a sweeping statement. Because the right-wing media do not report the cases (as with everything – the flavour of the month changes) it is not happening?
No – I look at the statistics – 41% increase in hate crime. Why deny it? The thing is how to address it.
That’s a slightly one-sided view point with you speaking on my behalf!
Of course I distrust the media! Any right-minded individual would have to do so. It’s a no-brainer. Just look at that damnable BBC, how bent are they?
As a matter of fact this matter has also taken a back seat within the left-wing press – that which I was automatically referring too, albeit non-described as I didn’t think I’d have to mention the right-wing press in the first place!
Just accept it for what it is – yesterdays news.
There has always been racial and segregation abuse. It’s just that it wasn’t topic of the moment ref Brexit.
And I like countless others, whom are surrounded by a multitude of foreigners have yet to once encounter let alone hear of one such incident first hand.
I’ve (as I’ve said before) only witnessed one incident where a some drunk little chav shouted anti-Paki abuse at a Pakistani in 2014, a long time before any Brexit anything. And he got himself a doing for doing it, too. But I could find such behaviour any day of the week and it’s in no way manifested by any Brexit anything. It’s normality. Not pleasant or necessary at all, but certainly not unusual. Ask any cop and he’ll tell you that also.
Public perceptions are so easily contrived and manufactured.
Just look at the junk the TV stations broadcast up to 10pm of an evening. Do they seriously think that this is what the vast majority of us actually want to watch? But they’ll try and have us believe this is what the people really want. Seriously?
What left-wing press?
There has always been racial abuse but the climate had changed and it was most definitely seen as wrong and become restricted to a narrow minority. I have seen a great deal of genuine integration and tolerance. I discern a change for the worse.
There is undoubtedly too much immigration. It has happened too quickly and caused problems in many areas. It needs controlling and infrastructure. Some areas are more heavily affected than others. I think this was the basis of a great deal of the concern. But I do not believe Brexit will solve this or make people’s lives better.
Yes – the media is poor – 5 million channels of crap.
You asked “what left-wing press”? Is that a serious question or are you just taking the piss?
Yes, we know the country is jammed silly with immigrants – I was saying it for long enough and I’m glad that you have finally got your head around that as this time last year I would not have been able to say that about you.
I sense that some of your indefensible liberalism is fading away from you bit by bit. Thank fuck for that!
Andrew I really think you should read my posts more thoroughly. I am totally opposed to mass immigration, religion in all forms, terrorism and Islam in particular – which is a very intolerant religion. I have put out posts on burqas, immigration, Charlie Hebdo and Islam. So much so that my friends told me to stop as I was attracting attention and making myself a target.
My liberal values, if that is what you insist on calling them, are quite intact thank you. I believe in equality, compassion, tolerance and caring. I want a better world and I’m an idealist who believes that we can make things better and there are things worth fighting for.
That seems better to me than simply wanting to pull up the drawbridge, admit defeat, and allow the world to rot.
I care about wildlife and the planet more than I care about people. I want an end to all the greed and selfishness. I’m prepared to try to make something better.
What are you doing about it?
What am I doing?
Firstly reducing the further opportunity for anymore transient Islamic nutters getting a foothold into this country by voting to exit from the cause and effect at root source – that bloody EU.
But that certainly wasn’t anywhere near my first 5 reasons for preferring to leave the EU if given the choice, but simply understood that the due process of a Brexit vote would indeed also automatically ensure such.
I’m done with enforced liberal multiculturalism because it has proved to be an unworkable disaster.
We have too many of the wrong types bleeding us dry.
Buy a local paper and review the names of those being pulled up in court for anti-social crimes and yet you’re trying your very best to tag our own people with such?
Get a grip of what’s going down around you.
Please do some study on the crime stats.
Why do you think you don’t see crime stats of EU immigrants on the front pages? I’ll tell you – because if indeed the general public did get to know exactly the levels there would be widespread uproar about it and probably way beyond that which the authorities could control.
We’ve been sold down the Swanee by the EU’s duplicity and wanton stupidity.
But the EU is not the cause of the mass migration. They have not dealt with it well but they are not the cause. The cause is war in Syria, Libya, Yemen, Nigeria etc. along with too high a population in Africa and the Middle East, poverty, inequality, unemployment, starvation and religious fanaticism. It is created by Western policies, proxy wars between Saudi and Iran, religious fanaticism and Western meddling.
In order to deal with the mass migration the overpopulation, wars, poverty and inequality need addressing. Everything else is plastering over the cracks.
Shutting the door and hiding away will not keep the problem at bay. It will simply get bigger and bigger.
There has to be some global plan and strategy to stop the stupidity eating up the world.
Liberal multiculturalism has not been a complete disaster. There has been a radical change over the last thirty years regarding race. There is far less racism and far greater acceptance. There are many examples of ell integrated black and Asian communities. The great influx has created major problems which have been exacerbated by poor policy and thinking. Integration takes time and planning. Immigrants do not integrate overnight.
Britain shutting itself away from decision making is not helpful. In my opinion we either solve the global problems now or suffer disaster.
Not true. The entire deal is manifested, controlled and manipulated solely by Saudi Arabia.
Hence, why their next exercise is to fund Islamic facilities in Europe. It was even mentioned on the TV the other night.
Saudi will be paying for and building 200 new Mosques in Germany.
Everything comes from Saudi.
Well I know Saudi has a big hand in fermenting the problems. For once Boris was spot on. They have their agenda for world domination and are funding it to the hilt. That’s the extremism of the Wahabi doctrine. But I still contend that behind everything there is this huge problem of overpopulation. poverty and inequality. The masses of jobless people, climate change and the carrot of Western luxury are going to cause endless problems. They are devastating the planet. When the bottom drops out of oil they will be well and truly in the mire. We’ll see what happens then.
Well why didn’t you say that in the first instance instead of replying here with a rewritten long winded explanation of what I already said before in one sentence?
Why leave the source if indeed you did at first juncture know that?
I’m not convinced, because the contents of your previous post are exactly what the media spouts. And it’s all bullshit.
Well of course I know that – I’m not stupid! Saudi are reprehensible.
Only a heartless, selfish bastard would think that Bigamy is no big deal.
It causes at great deal of heartbreak for the other half not doing it. They find their entire life torn open and exposed as a sham. People have made great personal sacrifice to enter a marriage with one person and not ever did they agree to enter any free-for-all. They could have done anything else but were lead a living lie by a grossly self-opinionated shit.
Where there’s children involved, the heartbreak for them must be so much worse.
And what do you think their reactions are when they find out that daddy has other children, too?
I’ve no idea what kind of logic you are employing here to come out with such statements and they certainly don’t reflect any of your “fair and compassionate world” blah.
I reckon you’re a blow hard total bullshitter.
Surely you’re confusing bigamy with deception? To enter into bigamy does not necessarily mean deception. I would hate that as an idea. No. I was referring to the open and free idea that some people might enjoy an open bigamist relationship with no deception. Why would you conclude otherwise? Bigamy does not have to be a deception. Some people are perfectly happy living in a threesome, foursome or other arrangement perfectly openly. Marriage doesn’t have to be with just one person.
I dislike people taking the moral high-ground to promote their arrogance and hatred. There’s a gleeful stupidity about it and a great emotional belligerence. I don’t like it.
And likewise towards those who cannot and will not accept the final result of a referendum. Some of these Remainers have made some extraordinary abusive remarks towards those that voted for Brexit. The double standards of hypocrisy are disgusting. There again, I’m fairly certain that the vast majority of Remainers haven’t got a clue of what they talk.
I can accept the final result but think that now the ‘facts’ are becoming clearer there is a case for a re-run. We were lied to. I also think that a binary vote does not indicate the options. Those need debating democratically. There are many ways of coming out.
I do not put out abusive remarks and neither do most other Remainers. We argue our side.
I’m also not arrogant enough to abusively say that most of the 16 million plus remainers don’t know what they are talking about.
It seems to me that the arrogance, belligerence and abuse (along with the lies) have been coming from the Brexiteers – as you just demonstrated.
A couple of weeks ago you ended one of your posts in conclusion that Brexiteers were idiots!
You might have been lied to, but I was not. I knew the facts about Boris Johnson’s £350 million. Why didn’t you?
Or are you just playing the “we were just too stupid to know any better card”? Well, that’s just too bad isn’t it?
Andrew – I would have to look at what I said and the context – but I do not write abuse indiscriminately and if there was a focus it would have been aimed at a certain contingency. I do not believe all Brexiteers are idiots – misguided but not all idiots. There were many reasons for voting out and not all of them were wrong.
A while ago you claimed that I’d said all Brexiteers voted with their nether regions which I certainly did not. Checking back what I had said was that the psychology of voting is that all people make an emotional choice (Brexiteers and Remainers) and then gather the evidence to support their view. They discard evidence that doesn’t fit and exaggerate evidence that does. People of all persuasions primarily vote with their glands not their brains. That’s the science. You misrepresented me.
I certainly wasn’t fooled by the lies being spouted from the likes of Boris, Gove, Fox, Davies and Rees-Mogg – all obnoxious, odious right-wingers with an agenda. But are you really telling me that there wasn’t a sizeable chunk of the electorate who fell for it? I know there was. There still are millions of less savvy people who believe that they are going to be better off out. There are still people who believe that we will save £8.5 Billion and that the subsidies will all be paid, and the NHS will get that funding.
Just remember I didn’t vote for out but millions of the people who will be hit hardest did. They were the gullible idiots who believed they would be better off.
There is a price to pay for Brexit – some people believe it is worth paying. I certainly don’t.
Well, read your own post before you make further comment.
I did think it was somewhat out of order, slovenly almost in content, but didn’t feel the need to rise to that bait.
What you say you do and feel aren’t always exactly as what is written – the above being an example.
But, hey, what do I care. We are leaving the EU. Period.
Actually Opher, I gave you exact date and time of your post where you had said all Brexiteers did vote with their nether regions, so I assume your memory is again not serving you too well. You have just entirely re-written to your own advantage here and now, details and reasons which I should remind you did not in fact exist within the written text of your original post. You are “whitewashing” your initial wanton and insulting diatribe with much more level headed and reasonable post-thought.
Well done, but I ain’t buying it.
You don’t want me to cut and paste up your original text now do you? I though not…
I think you misrepresent far, far too many people with such an unqualified assumption “that too many people voted with their glands” – so what exactly are these glands? Prey tell?
What kind of cod-science is this?
You’re one step removed from Feng Shui here, ie, talking an absolute load of nonsense.
Personally, I could not care less what final decisive factors lead anybody to vote Brexit.
I could say the very same about that crap that was printed on some government leaflet that was sent out to every household in the the country – you know the one that 52% of voters ignored for what it was, yet you chose to retype it here on your forum, word for word verbatim as if you had constructed it yourself.
You didn’t fool me, mister.
On that matter, how many Labour voters are there out there who vote Labour because their parents had?
Does that give their vote any qualification?
No, so same rules apply.
And as for trying to put the blame on Brexit for any of your future financial hardships – try looking a bit closer to home to when your pension payments were at a critical point and see what your beloved Labour party did for you in that respect.
How much potential pension money did they lose you?
Don’t even think about it Opher, as it’ll give you a heart attack.
That isn’t ‘cod-science’ Andrew – it is shorthand. Our emotions are chemical. Our reasoning is electric. Psychologists say that we react emotionally first and then apply our version of reason to support our initial stance. That is the way we operate. I simply abbreviate. Biologists have a way of explaining. It’s a bit simplistic but effective.
Long ago I checked that post you refer to and it said what I said it did.
I did not even read that stupid government leaflet. It went straight in the bin with all the other guff. What I wrote were my views. I didn’t need Cameron to tell me what to think. I must be psychic if I come to the same conclusion mustn’t I?
All this partisan politics is daft. People need to look at the intent and policies. Very few bother. They haven’t a clue what the parties stand for.
The Labour Party policies actually increased my pension. They valued public services and paid them appropriately. My pension was based on my salary. My brother-in-law suffered though. He is an electrician and his pension was devastated.
Opher, sorry but seriously cut the biology lecture.
We had weeks and weeks to conclude what to vote for.
Speak for yourself if you want to talk about voting with emotions etc., but seriously you are simply taking the wanton piss out of a hell of lot of much better educated and informed people than yourself.
You consistently talk of costs like they were a shock to you?
Of course there are costs, that’s a no-brainer isn’t it?
We already know how long it will take to recoup these costs – somewhere around 2025-2030. So what?
No matter how big the pile of evidence piles up in front of you as to just how abusive the EU is towards our development, you shirk back into this defenceless little enclave of rights and tolerance. Neither of which ever made anybody a brass farthing.
You just don’t possess enough business and financial acumen. It’s just not your area of expertise and I can readily understand that. I can understand why the whole deal can seem frightening to you.
We will soon be in the position of being able to remove several million useless articles bleeding us dry here, either through milking the benefits system or the by proceeds of crime. We will no longer be abused as one of Europe’s first based dumping grounds for people who have bugger all to offer in terms of job skills. We can rid ourselves of these street rats sprawling around begging with a poly cup – offering up the mandatory “f-you mister” as you pass them without giving up your cash.
Those that are actually the root cause of food price rises due to the scale of their shoplifting gangs operations. But yer average liberal would be outraged by such suggestion.
I’m not quite as outraged by such a prospect as I know for a fact that food prices have never been so low but are adversely affected by the grand scale of such crime. Crime figures that leftist media, including the BBC, refuse to highlight for fear of further public backlash.
There is lies heaped upon lies from all quarters regarding this, including crime stats as published by the police and parliament. It is a shocking epidemic wholly manifested by our worthless foreign cousins.
I am sick and tired from hearing people moaning on and on about claims that they were lied to in vain attempts to make further claims of invalidity of the referendum. The voting process was clear cut without complications – Stay or Leave. It was not a difficult ballot paper for anybody to understand.
Quite why all this was supposed to be supported by clear cut and honest accounts of the pros and cons from both parties is indeed questionable and actually were not an intrinsic part of this particular voting process.
The information dealt out to the public was no more misleading than in any other normal election, however, it could be argued that this wasn’t just a run of the mill general election with a short-term 4 year life span.
Had there been a more complex voting system then yes I would agree that there should have been a lot more accurate information available. However, this was not the case. Voters had the choice based upon their own life experiences, they all have their own stories to tell, personal experiences with living within the confines of EU dictatorship, whether the stay or go and that was it. Simples.
Not difficult for you and me to work out perhaps. We know when we are being lied to. But there are millions of gullible, less intelligent and less educated people who are easily duped.
The cost is too great. Simple as that.
You have quite a problem with immigrants and the needy. It must be very bad in your neck of the woods. I see it as bad but I’m not as overboard about it as you. There are more important things.
Of course it’s not such a problem for you having been living in the back of beyond for 30 years. You may as well have been living in the Shetlands for all it’s worth.
It has got seriously out of control and my area is by no means one of the worst.
Have you walked the north bank of the River Thames recently? Good grief!
I told you before that in Edinburgh city they have a whole division of cops with the sole duty to pick `em off the streets and bundle them them out of bounds.
Because I live in inner-city mainly residential, we don’t have that kind of service because we don’t pay sky high rates to pay for such a service. The cops are only in the vicinity following any problems. OK, you may see a few on the beat, but nothing like as many as say 10 years ago. The only times I do see cops are football days. These beggars harass everybody at underground entrances, bus stops, main shopping thoroughfares, coffee houses and bars with alfresco seating. They are everywhere continuously in ever increasing numbers.
Well I’m not sure that Hull is quite the back of beyond but it does not sound as bad as where you are. We have a large immigrant population – Kurds, Poles and Eastern Europeans. We have our beggars and homeless. Something needs doing about it.
Read my line of questions – they were fair and self explanatory.
What this is another example of is simply one where the poster had obviously believed all the media blah unthinkingly.
Perhaps my questions did scare them off because they realised they had stepped into a can of worms that they had never considered.
That’s usually what happens, isn’t it?
Very few ever come back saying that they didn’t know about something.
Yes, in order to vote, I would like an IQ test or something that determines a fully functional individual.
I also think that there should be some level of lying time for new immigrants before being allowed to vote, at least 2 years.
And I certainly do not want to see 16 year old school children given a vote again, as happened in Scotland with the independence one in 2014. If they aren’t old enough to buy a drink as an adult, why should they vote as an adult?
Well I think they came over as aggressive and intimidating and so did not receive a response. But I don’t know for sure. You’d have to ask Safar. It looked to me as if she was being attacked by you and Anna and could not be bothered to respond.
I have often wondered about a test for eligibility to vote. I’m not sure an IQ test is the answer. But some test on political understanding might be in order. It seems to me that if people have to work to be enfranchised they might value it more. Then there is the compulsory vote (like Australia). That would be interesting.
2 years for immigrants sounds reasonable
I wouldn’t mind 16 year olds voting though. In my experience the kids were very clued up and involved. They made more sense than the adults. Perhaps they should just lower the drinking age. Nobody pays any attention to it anyway.
Petrol prices? They’ve dropped, so that blows part of your argument right out the water.
Haven’t you noticed the prices today versus what you were paying say 2012?
It’s reckoned they may well drop to 90p a liter.
Where did you get some of your ideas as regards reasons for those that voted to leave from?
And some of the reasons you’ve given for those that voted to stay? Some of them are simply ludicrous, such as “caring” and “compassion”. As for “outward looking”, you really have to be joking here. The EU could not be more insular and is a huge block on “more global perspective”. It absolutely strangles the life out of anything of the sort. Therefore, I completely disagree with about 80% of any of the reasons you have listed, whether they are for remain or exit.
I would go so far as to label some of them as utter contrived nonsense.
You really haven’t got a single iota of a clue as to how restrictive EU trade regulations are. And I keep telling you this having run an import business in the EU. You haven’t, yet continue to spout the same old highly misinformed rubbish. I think it is high time that you educated yourself on this and did some research. But as per usual, you will reply that you simply don’t have the time, blah, blah, blah, and you’ll stand by your views. Stand looking bloody silly, if you ask me. The EU is one unmitigated friggin’ disaster. Period.
You talk of “always stood for” and “fighting for”, yet you’re only one individual mouthing off.
Now, had you actually stood up and been counted such as the Liberal lady who simply decided to stand in the Richmond seat bi-election, I might be persuaded to believe you. Otherwise…
I see the EU project as a stepping stone to a more globally cooperative, inclusive international state of affairs. In my view Nations are tribal anachronisms that should be done away with. At some point we have to move on from tribe, race and country to a more universal approach to each other and the planet. This sectarianism is killing both us and the planet.
I compare petrol prices now with what they were preBrexit not 2012. Filled the car up yesterday and it cost me £8 more.
Those were the reasons as I saw them. I’m quite open to debate. Other people will have other views.
I do think that an inclusive, outward-looking, welcoming society is more caring and compassionate than an inward, isolating society, but that’s just my belief.
There are lots of things wrong with the EU – no denying it – but I would far rather set about putting them right than taking a leap back into the past. The EU can be made to work much better and I like the openness of it. Breaking down barriers between nations is a good thing. Operating as a bloc gives more power and influence. Western values of equality, tolerance, environmental concern and caring should be widely promoted.
I may be ‘mouthing off’ but at least I’m passionate about what I believe and am prepared to put my head over the parapet and shout it. I spent thirty six years in education promoting my values of compassion, empathy, tolerance, equality, responsibility and respect so I haven’t just ‘mouthed off’. I’ve been on the marches, attended the meetings and argued for action.
Tribal anachronisms! What world are you living in?
I can’t see you gaining any ground with your alternative concept. Not a millimetre.
Never mind what it cost you to fill up yesterday – what did you actually pay per litre as compared to not that long ago?
Asda were selling for £1 per litre recently. When did you last pay that?
Why don’t you google petrol prices and see for yourself and cut out this silly woffle.
How would you therefore make this EU work better, given for example, that they knocked Cameron back on no less than 72 occasions upon his application for a better deal concerning a range of matters?
You would have to clear out in the region of about 5,000 EU bureaucrats in order to gain any leverage in that direction.
It’s a snake pit of Vipers. Greedy, selfish, insular, conceited bastards, the lot of them.
How would you propose removing the top table? The non-elected extremely corrupt and influential top table?
So you really do think that ramming western values down the throats of all and sundry is a good thing? Don’t you think that’s just a bit conceited? I do, given my knowledge of the other side of the world.
I would suggest that you actually spent the vast majority of your 36 years in education working a curriculum.
I really don’t think you’d have been in any position to bombard kids with your own personal manifesto for any length of time before feeling the repercussions of such an action. Besides, what gives you the right to do that?
You were certainly never contracted for such.
Basically, you might have done it off the cuff a few times, but there ends, I suggest.
On the other hand, perhaps you are exaggerating the educational process of teaching basic good behaviour and respect towards others. I think that’s elementary really and certainly nothing out of the ordinary as this process starts day one at primary school. I received that in school from 1964, plus the fact that I had a younger brother, too, so I assume my own parents were also very influential with this educational process.
Your getting close to stating you were doing a better job on this than the kid’s own parents. I’d temper that down a bit if I were you.
If you were to ask 10 people why they were on a march you would receive 10 different answers. So, I wouldn’t put too much credibility towards your argument in that respect.
Back to EU. You do realise of course that UK wasn’t really a fully fledged member in the first place. We still have our own currency. That’s a detail of considerable import.
Neither do we suffer from the “Police State” mentality most prevalent within many other EU nations, which I can assure you would be most uncomfortable with. For instance, did you recently have to rock up in person to your local cop shop and fill in all the forms relating to your house move in order to receive new ID cards? No, you didn’t and I would hate to see that kind of authoritarianism at work in our society. But, it would only have been a matter of time before such would have been enforced upon us.
By this time next year the EU will be rolling over belly up.
Well being an idealist I look to the world of the future that we are in the process of building. We either improve and get it right or check out. I’m for improving.
Petrol has never been as low as that here. Following the vote it went up by six pence a litre and hasn’t come down.
We use people-power to change it! That’s the democratic process.
I’m not talking about ramming values down throats – I’m referring to the values as laid out in the UN charter of human rights. They need to be firmly enforced.
The ethos of tolerance, empathy, compassion, responsibility, respect and democratic values was a major part of the PSHE (Personal, Social, Health Education) programme that all schools promote and I was a teacher and trainer for. It was not so much taught as discussed and debated. This was my official area of expertise. I was contracted to do precisely that. I did it week in and week out to Y10, Y11 and Y12.
The ethos of the school is all-important. Education is very powerful and has moved on enormously (or had before the Tories got their hands on it). I think you’re out of touch with modern education Andrew. It’s changed.
I’d hate to see that kind of authoritarianism too! And maybe the EU will crumble
by next year. I’ll be very sad igf that is the case. While you dwell on the negatives of the project I celebrate the positives – collaboration, interaction, relationship etc.
Opher, I’ll repeat myself in fear of repetition – Asda were selling at £1 per litre about a fortnight ago.
Actually, I went to the most advanced and well equipped school in the UK during the tenure of my attendance. And we got all that respect and tolerance stuff in the 1970’s, thank you very much.
We had loads of kids being moved from their expensive fee-paying schools to attend mine, that’s how good it was.
I’m no more out of touch than yourself at this present moment in time in this respect.
I don’t dwell on the negatives! I’m simply more aware of exactly what the connotations are with doing business in the EU and their strangle hold with regards regulations.
For all their bluster on health and safety for example, have you examined in any close proximity the shocking state of affairs concerning many Euro food products permitted for import to UK? Have you closely examined the contents for some of the products you may be buying regularly?
You seem to be swathed in the desire to be controlled by people whom you have not the slightest clue as what their agenda is. People who never have to stand up and be counted. I simply cannot understand that. Not for the life of me can I understand why anybody would want their every waking living moment governed by some faceless bureaucrat earning a bomb sitting in sheer luxury some 1,000 miles away.
These people should be on paper at least, absolutely everything you stand against.
Multiculturalism has been shown to have failed to achieve social integration across Europe. Why do you think there has been a general movement towards the right and not just in the UK? There are pockets of migrants or descendants of migrants who have established their own enclaves in the UK and that can only lead to trouble in the future. Don’t you think it’s more than a coincidence that the majority of participants in the Paris bombings came from the same suburb of Molenbeke in Brussels? The Socialist President of France has already gone. Merkel may well be gone next year. The Italian prime minister has gone. Corbyn lives in a wilderness. Labour is a busted flush.
You are exaggerating the immediate economic consequences of the vote. Yes the pound has gone down but it has gone up in the last 2 weeks. After the vote you forecast that fuel prices would go through the roof. They have not. In fact they are lower than they were about 8 years ago. If petrol prices rise it will be down to the Opec countries deliberately reducing oil supply in order to inflate the barrel price. There is an oversupply of oil in the world and that is likely to increase as new technologies replace carbon fuels. Food prices overall are lower in the supermarkets because of increased competition. Why do you think inflation is so low? Compare the inflation rate; income tax rate and interest rates with those under the last true Labour government in the 70s when those rates were in double figures. Since the vote exports have increased because of the fall in the pound. Google, Facebook and Jaguar have stated they are creating future jobs here. That’s not a failing economy. You watch what happens in Europe if the Italian banks collapse. The whole European project could collapse. The ECB can’t stand another Greece.
Funnily enough, today I walked past my local “Community Centre”, which is positioned just off the street with two walls of windows and I just happened to notice it was full of Chinese people all eating. Given this centre is only used for community affairs, so much for multiculturalism.
I completely agree with your post.
Multiculturalism has not been as effective as it should have been because of a lack of integration. Unfortunately I think a lot of immigrants remain in enclaves, alienated and isolated. They keep their old customs and do not learn the language or subscribe to our value systems. More effort should have been made to integrate communities. There are many ways this could be achieved. It is not helped at all by having religious schools and Sharia courts. The incipient racism and lack of opportunity for immigrants to prosper causes resentment and further alienation.
We haven’t even started on the economic downside of Brexit yet. The cost will be enormous. I’ve been looking at the projected figures. I’m extremely gloomy about it all. We are going to have austerity for ever.
The immediate effects of the fall in the pound has had an impact (such as petrol prices) and will impact further down the line. A 10% drop cannot be absorbed by competition forever.
I’ve seen them most places! I like fish and chips every now and again – as long as they are sustainable!
I agree with what you have to say Opher. In response to Andrew – just because news isn’t reporting it, doesn’t mean that the far-right is not regaining its hold. I find the tabloid coverage extraordinarily irresponsible and abhor the simplification and throw away use of phrases such as the “will of the people”, “the people have clearly spoken.” The situation, the reasons and the so-called generic will are complex, highly regional and not fully explored nor understood. I live in a multi-cultural community suffering the aftermath of Jo Cox’s murder and the following trial. This perspective and local reporting gives me the perspective of a generic will for greater integration.
There are aspects of European administration that I feel are highly questionable. Agricultural, fisheries and conservation policies defy conventional wisdom on effective environmental action. However, wouldn’t it be better to be part of the decision-making process rather than excluded from it? Improve the union rather than isolate ourselves from it and still be subject to its effects?
Economically we are globally challenged. World debt is three times the global economy (Bloomberg article), and there is no sign of this receding. Government responses are austerity measures and when times are austere, the ‘will of the people” is to find someone to blame. The UKs debt is 89% of GDP, which is not the top 20 of countries, but with 6 European countries (one being France) in this list (from Statista). Japan and the US make the top 20 and China is rapidly catching up. I can’t see how, by itself, that the UK will be able to shield itself from global forces.
It seems to me that politics globally is outdated for the rapidly changing and expanding processes confronting all of humanity. Political agendas are highly fixed. There is a power in keeping important issues off the agenda so that decisions can never be made about them.
To those who argue that when you disagree with political decisions that are being made and give those views voice that you should run for a seat yourself, I say it’s a rigged game. I’m angry and upset about several internal and international trends, including the loss of my European citizenship and the rights that came with that. And one of those rights is to be upset about it and a second is the freedom of speech to say so.
Freedom of speech to say so, yes you have the right to be upset not agree with the decision made that we came out of Europe. I had the right to vote and I had the right to accept the decision made, I expected us to remain in Europe I did not believe that the British Public would come out as they did and Vote to Leave Europe, but they did and we won after 41 years. What I do not accept is being told by those pathetic losers and bullies that I was wrong I had no right to vote the way I did, that I had damaged the Country, that I was a racist, do you want me to go on. I put a poster in my Porch and it read “YES I VOTED TO COME OUT OF EUROPE, DOES NOT MAKE ME A RACIST”. I have no problem with those people that have come to this Country, what I do object to is the way they form a ghetto if you like, they try to force their beliefs on us. Whether you like it or not Opher this is still a Christian Country not a muslim Country, we have to stand back and watch as schools are told “no Nativity Play” because it will offend the muslims, WHAT, this is the UK a Christian Country, people come here don’t like the rules, then they can go back to where they come from. If I went to live in their Countries I would not respect them I would obey the rules, here we are too bloody soft.
Anna – nobody says you are a racist. What the vote has done is empower and licence that minority of racists to spread their filth. The racists, nationalists and supremacists voted Brexit but not all Brexit voters were part of that objectionable group. You take things too personally.
This country is not Christian. It has a Christian Tradition but, ever since the enlightenment, it is secular. That is incredibly important!
You know what I think about religion and schools – there is no place for it. Indoctrinating children is disgusting. Let people do their worshipping in the church of their choice and not public institutions.
Muslims have no right to push their religion on others and I believe the authorities should ban religious schools and all their madrassas. Shoving religion down kids’ throats should be illegal.
But certainly up here there are no nativity plays banned – I wish they were. All brain-washing should be banned and militant Muslims and Evangelical Christians locked up.
Actually, the evidence would suggest that you would seek out others of your nationality, and if religious, a Christian church to attend and find or establish shops that provide the things you miss from home. You’d be likely to join the expat community, and spend more time in that social milieu rather than fully integrating with your hosts. I also think the evidence would suggest Britain is more secular than Christian.
Immigration is a convenient scapegoat for a lack of governments addressing the very real issues of over population, hunger, poverty, lack of opportunity, conflict, resource depletion, outright industrial theft of land, and other forms of social injustice. Migration is a successful adaptation to environmental changes for many species including humans. It will continue, it will grow, you may be forced to migrate yourself – we’re already suffering increased flooding, and with those migrations, people will bring their strongest held beliefs, values and practices as they are the basis for finding meaning in a difficult life and a source of safety in uncertain times and hostile social environments. We need to embrace tolerance and unity, humanity depends upon it.
Safar you are so right to point out the underlying problems that are not being addressed – overpopulation tops my list. The destruction of the environment is a close second.
If we don’t address these issues we will not have a future.
Integration takes time and requires careful planning. It is not helped by stupid policies such as religious schools. The Brits abroad are among the worst at integrating. I’m sick of seeing pubs and fish and chip shops all round the world catering for enclaves of Brits.
Safar, when did you last live in another EU country and I don’t mean Ireland?
What would you honestly know about expat communities in say Germany for instance. Or those in Portugal?
I’d be interested to know, because whatever this supposed evidence you may have is actually inconsiderate in relation to those that do not practice religion as a first-base means of communication with others.
Basically, you have (whether intentionally, though I actually suspect otherwise) confused the relationships of those that are of a working age and those of retirement age.
There exist huge differences in the process of integration between these two sectors.
Retirees do not integrate. Period.
Those that work have to.
Fish & Chip shops all round the world?
An exaggeration perhaps?
Thoroughly agree Safar. This advance of the far-right and nationalism is deplorable. Fragmentation is sad and will set us all back. That vote has robbed me of a lot of my rights and I thoroughly resent it – and I do not just mean financially (that cost will probably be substantial).
Robbed you, 41 years ago the Country entered the Common Market, you were of an age to vote then. We lost and were forced into the EU. 41 years, those that voted NO, did not riot in the streets, insult people, constantly call people racist because they voted OUT, and don’t dare tell me that has not happened because it has. 41 Years we had to wait to vote again, and we won we are Out of Europe. And you have been robbed, what about all those 41 years ago, of course that would not matter to you, all that matters to you is that you are “right, right, right”, do you know what you are is an absolute bore on the subject, and I am not being personally insulting I am being honest, but of course you will twist it you are so good at that.
So who is it that is calling you racist?
But yes we have been robbed. We’ve been robbed of a good amount of money and a country with an ethos to be proud of.
I’m not out rioting, insulting people or calling you names. I’m not telling you that you are boring or calling you insulting names like Remainder. There’s only one of us gloating.
For 41 years I think we have had excellent value out of Europe – a lot of things I’d change but overall excellent. Peace, prosperity, collaboration, closer unity and sharing. I like it a lot.
This ‘We Won’ gloating is not a pleasant attribute.
I noticed you shouted loudly when the constitution was brought into play because it did not suit you. Sovereignty was part of it right? To have laws decided here?
I don’t twist things (another insult) – I state my views. I have no need to twist things.
You only like my passion when it is in line with yours!
You don’t like nationalism Opher, so why should we have to accept your nationalist pride? That’s all too convenient to use as ammunition today considering your previous on such. Considering how disgusted you have expressed yourself with the history of our nations aggression towards others – even though your take on the the machinations of slavery was slight off-kilter with the actual events.
Sorry, but you’ll have to blow harder.
You misinterpret. I don’t have any nationalistic pride per se. I think Britain has a great tradition of social struggle and has become one of the best nations in terms of human rights and freedoms. But they were hard fought for and not a product of the nation as much as a sacrifice of a minority. Easy come easy go.
We have reached a reasonable place but it is being eroded. We certainly do not live in a democracy. That is a sham. People are shamelessly manipulated.
You definitely live in a democracy, hence, why you had opportunity to express your choice of vote.
Going back a bit. I just noticed your claims that we have been a secular society since the Enlightenment. Do you know where the Enlightenment HQ was? Do you know who was involved?
I fear not, otherwise you may never have made such a claim.
I suggest you look into that further.
I’ll give you a starter for 10.
1. Edinburgh
2. full-blown Church of Scotland Presbyterian Protestants.
I’ll leave you to go figure out the rest.
Andrew do you really think that alters anything? The separation of church from state was the issue. You merely obfuscate pointlessly as usual. Utterly immaterial.
The church was successfully separated from the state a long time ago.
For a democracy to work properly there has to be freedom of unbiased information and a vote. We have manipulation, biased information and no direct vote except in referendums. We vote for representatives who cannot totally represent our views. I contend that is a sham of democracy.
Listen matey, like it or lump it, call it what you like, but religious leaderships are very much involved in our social political strata on multitudes of levels. Just because we are not governed by them in person any more does not mean that carry no influences!
Their very presence in the law making process contradicts your claims that I obfuscate pointlessly. It is quite the reverse as there exists zero obscurity or confusion with this issue as it remains as clear to all to see for themselves. Just tune into BBC Parliament channel sometime eh?
Just because they are not banging their bibles on the table does not obscure the reality. They maintain a heady and heavy presence and only a blind fool would deny this.
Opher, some of your comments surprise me by their expression of arrogance and intolerance. You did accuse Leave voters of being racist and xenophobic in a previous post. Fortunately you are not in a position of power in the world. What’s wrong with someone opening a pub/fish & chip shop to cater for tourists when obviously there must be a demand? Who are you to imply that most people who voted to leave the EU are somehow less intelligent than you who voted to remain. I voted to remain but I respect the intelligence of those who decided to vote differently. What do you know about Islam? Very little I suspect. You appear to have formed your views on Islam based on the activities of a minority (in global terms) of extremists who espouse their own distorted interpretation of the tenets of Islam. Did you know that it is a fundamental tenet of Islam that to kill someone other than in self-defence is a crime equivalent to killing all of mankind? No, I suspect. There is nothing wrong with religion per se. It unites people; gives people inspiration and gives succour to those in need of comfort. The problem lies with the people who usurp religions to promote their own agendas normally comprising the acquisition of power over others. Religion does not necessarily incorporate a faith in a god. Religion can be a belief held by a dictator who determines whether fish & chip shops, for example, are allowed to operate. I’d bracket you in the same group as Corbyn as people who want to dictate how others lead their lives. It’s straight out of Animal Farm. I value my freedom to choose. I’d prefer to die than surrender my freedom to your group of left-wing dictators.
Globalisation is not a panacea for the world’s problems. It delivers power into too few hands; creates inequalities between those who have and those who do not and creates unemployment and exploitation. You need look only at the failure of the communist Soviet system to see the flaws.
Finally the official religion of the UK is Christianity and the monarch is the official head of the Church of England so officially the UK is a Christian country albeit one which tolerates the practice of other religions.
Bernard that is not true. I do not think all people who voted Brexit are either racist or xenophobic. If that is what came across then it was a poorly composed post. There are certainly elements of Brexiteers who are racist and xenophobic. Trump and Brexit attracted the right-wing white supremacists and nationalists.
There is nothing wrong with setting up a fish and chip shop in Spain. I was merely alluding to the mentality of the British abroad who have a tendency to not integrate themselves into the communities but set up their own little enclaves yet protest loudly about immigrants in Britain who do the same thing.
I have no desire to control the lives of people. I value personal freedom and tolerance – as you well know.
My views on all religion are clear – I find it all a psychological prop that has been created by men and used for power. We’d be better off without it. Islam has a very intolerant aspect to it as can be seen with its fundamentalist expression. There aren’t too many religions supporting slavery or indiscriminately killing non-believers or homosexuals. Christianity used to do that too.
I can see the downside of a global organisation but believe that a body, such as the UN, could, if given a chance, produce a more tolerant, humane world where there was greater equality and less environmental destruction. The problems we have are global. They can only be addressed globally.
They are present Andrew and do still have some influence but are not in control. This is no theocracy. Far from it.
I never for a moment said there was theocracy. These are only your words.
I did say that there is not a total separation of church from state as evident by the fact that there are 26 bishops in the HoL, and statistically it would be accurate to assume that 26 votes going one way or another may well be enough to secure a majority decision upon the passing of laws.
That’s all I said and nothing more.
One has to give this some consideration.
I would suggest that perhaps it’s worth looking into the lengths of the process that government has to do when selecting high ranking religious figures for positions in the HoL.
Me thinks you are splitting hairs. The influence of the church is negligible. The Queen is powerless and the Bishops reduced to a meaningless minority. I say we live in a secular country.
Splitting hairs? That isn’t giving consideration to the facts.
It’s not a black and white and very obvious issue. It is one of utmost secrecy. You don’t know what members of HoL use to govern their train of thoughts and decision making process.
After all – you insist it is one of emotions first and foremost, didn’t know. Therefore, were this emotion to be of a religious persuasion, what’s the result going to be – that of governed by religion.
Or did you automatically assume that only 26 people in the HoL will have religious beliefs?
Oh No!
What? You really believe that we are still governed by religion? I don’t believe it. Sure there are a bunch of religious people but they don’t run all their ideas out of the Old Testament!
Should get rid of it altogether, in my view – outdated, primitive claptrap.
I’m not talking about the Old Testament. I’m talking about persons where their decision making process may or not be swayed by their own religious beliefs.
And they just happen to live in HoL. What’s difficult about this aspect for you?
Just because you can’t see something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist!
Put you science hat back on – you need it now.
I’m sure that there is a religious bias. Our long history of Christianity would create that. That is not altogether bad either. Many Christian ethics are perfectly acceptable. It’s the dogma that is poor. The argument was that we do not live in a Christian country. We live in a secular country. Christianity does not control the law of the land. It certainly might influence it but there is a big difference.
A Christian country is a theocracy. A Secular country with Christian influence is a different kettle of fish.
Safar, what hold did the far-right ever have exactly?
A few malcontent skinheads in Elephant & Castle having a rumble with some Yardie boys on a Saturday night? You are exaggerating to ridiculous proportions. Common sense will prevail as always. Personally, I’d prefer to see more of our “international” residents get up off their ass and start giving older people a seat on a crowded bus or train. But woe betide anybody who suggests otherwise of their given rights to keep seated.
So, you bought into the Jo Cox deal hook line and sinker?
Did it not occur to you why the man who shot her was not dealt with in a court in the vicinity of the actual crime, as per normal process? Where was this trial held? Who was the presiding judge? What other cases had this judge recently also presided over? Did you notice anything remiss with the court reporting from this trial? Did you notice anything slightly off-kilter with local witnesses to the murder in relation to media reports?
Do you actually know what the political agenda of the White Helmets is – those that she so openly supported, yet her husband maintains a somewhat awkward stance regarding his own activities within this organisation?
Many questions are raised with this matter and swept under the carpet for safety of “too dangerous for the public to get to know” basis.
It stinks and Cox was one hell of a gullible fool, regardless of tears of sympathy from her friends in Parliament.
I would suggest that your area is no matter worse off in terms of racial abuses than anywhere else, lest you lived in Luton and were on the other end of the receiving line. Racism works both ways and always has. The problem being most Liberals are too blind to acknowledge this fact of life.
So you think that by remaining in the EU this will improve UK’s economic dire straits? So no questions as to what may have contributed to our plight in the first instance? Nothing to do with cheap labour plants in Eastern Europe sucking our jobs out by hundreds of thousands? You’re OK with that are you?
You can stick your contrived stats where the sun don’t shine, as the reality is we are completely doomed were we to spend a further decade within its midst. We have to get out of there to do better business on better terms. Why so many people consider the EU to be the best deal for us is beyond me. We are world leaders in so many fields and our gains are being sucked dry by non-developed member states with a golden begging bowl. In no way can they compete with us yet get dealt the same package allowances. It is shocking. Enough already. It is exactly this naive liberal mentality that has got us into this position in the first place. So what if world debt is three times the global economy? That’s merely a statistic and not something out little nation can strangle itself about. What the US and Japan do with their economies is their look out – albeit that this affects all and sundry, but it’s not our responsibility.
Within the EU, have you actually analysed what the first thing new member states, particularly those in eastern Europe, do once obtaining entry? They import luxury goods! They do not concentrate on getting their countries manufacturing and industry up to speed in order to compete with the rest of the community, but squander vast millions of EU start-up aid money on the aspirations of their elite classes – they do exist, though most probably not strictly legit. And you’re quite happy to stand back and consider this as a fair deal?
Actually as a point of fact, real business strategy does not consider the UK to be in any real financial trouble particularly in the short term. For example, next year 5 more luxury 5-star hotels will be opening in London alone. 6 in Paris and 10 in New York. The hotel business in always one of the first businesses affected by economic downturn, therefore, this suggests given the vast millions, perhaps running into billions of expensive borrowed money, that there exist very strong resolve towards economic recovery in the short term, otherwise such risky ventures would never be undertaken and be put on indefinite hold or cancelled all together.
Yes, I caught with both hands the underlying between the lines connotations of your last paragraph. Nice try, but clearly aimed directly at me. So what? Many people know it’s a rigged game, as the new Liberal lady in Richmond has just found out by being told to shut up in the interim by her party powers-that-be. However, this doesn’t seem to stifle the initial urge to do something about something, that of running in a local election. Thankfully, we have that freedom here and I think you will find that is not the case in some of the EU’s other member states.
As for your fears of losing EU citizenship – are you sure about that? As for your rights – well all I can say from personal experience of doing business in 3 EU member states, that what you see written down on paper does not compute with the reality. You’re dreaming with that one.
You know what Opher, you don’t listen you have your view and thats all that matters “the master has spoken, all listen”. Your abuse of Theresa May is beneath you, you have this violent attitude towards her and NO I was not referring to her if you read it, I was referring to the New soon to be First Lady of America, and don’t bother with the personal insulting pathetic comments on her, don’t show yourself up. You may have spoken to FIVE people, those I have spoken to tell me that all their friends who have come here have not been abused or insulted and love this Country. I am not suggesting it does not go on in inner Cities, but then are you not forgetting about all those your girls that were kidnapped off the streets of an inner city by muslims and used for sex, sold for sex – but I dare say that you will deny. The Mosques, are you saying every single one of them is safe, that every single preacher is not teaching hated, because open your eyes/ears and everything else the terrorists here that we know of that have committed crimes/gone abroad to cut heads off where were they taught, it happens it has happened here. The terrorists ate within and don’t even dare deny it, because you will make yourself look a fool. Whether you like it or not and you don’t this country is still a Christian Country and I for one will stand up and fight for that to always the case. Anyone, black/white who comes here well if you come legally than accepted but if they come here and close themselves off, refuse to speak English, walk the streets covered in burqas, try to force their beliefs on us, become terrorists they don’t like this Country, go back. Look at Paris, where did those terrorists come from. Angela Merkel has done a uturn, why because she knows what could happen at the next elections, she is also fearing for her life. Europe, well what can I say, 41 years I waited and you have no right to tell me my vote or any other votes or what legal points you come up with, we won the vote we are out of Europe and you’re champion Corbyn, the man who hated Europe, how quickly he changed his mind.
Why do you make out that I defend Muslims abusing vulnerable girls? They were scum.
And no I think the mosques need properly policing and the hate peddlers locked up. I am no advocate of Islam or Christianity. I’m a staunch antitheist. I’d do away with the whole superstitious man-made nonsense and develop my own spirituality.
No it is not a Christian country. It is a secular country. Thankfully.
I’m far from being a fool.
The First Lady of America – Donald’s trophy wife. I don’t know too much about her.
The Church was separated from the State a long time ago. We are completely secular. Christianity is now a dwindling minority. Most people do not worship at all. Christianity does not rule this country. Parliament is secular.
I’m sorry you feel disappointed that I continue to passionately state what I believe in. You find it boring and upsetting. But I know what I believe and why and it does not matter to me if I’m the only person that believes it.
As you previously explained to me – you were never in agreement – you feigned friendship in order to flatter and try to make a fool of me. You dislike what I stand for and detest my stance on religion, Brexit, Trump and politics. Fine. Your prerogative. You and Andrew espouse the same right-wing attitudes. You were duplicitous and insincere and abused our friendship. You’re disappointed? How come? You chose to deceive not me. I spoke honestly. You sought to abuse.
Safar: If you were referring to me, I find you extremely insulting, patronizing I have no intention of leaving MY Country England, without appearing to be rude your name suggests you may be from abroad. I was born here, as were my parents who may have come from Ireland but at the time of their births Ireland was under the UK, it was not to become a Republic for some time. My Parents generation, previous generations worked hard as have my generation and present, made this Country what it is. Men fought two World Wars, even some of those who have fought recent Wars are asking “what did I bother for” when they see all the so called do gooders ruining everything. Britain is not secular you and others may wish it to be but it is still a Christian Country, if that offends you you can always leave if you live here. I would never become an expat. I would never surrender my British Passport, it is far too important to me, pity it wasn’t to others. Your first comments, sort out like shops is that not what the Poles have done and had signs on their windows, in Surrey, “No English Welcome”, the Indian shops for their own, where do you want me to stop. It may suit you and others if people like me were not here, then you could turn this Country into an even bigger mess than it is now.
Anna, this particular word “Secular” that gets chucked around like a pass-the-parcel game, is very often misused and abused.
My dictionary explains it as foremost – “concerned with the affairs of the world; not spiritual or sacred.”
However, if one were to analyse the due process of our laws, our court proceedings and all matters in relation the the making of and/or amendments to our laws, why therefore, do we have the existing process in a court of law of swearing to tell the truth upon oath with a religious book of choice? Strange, eh?
Why do we have many religious leaders involved in the law making process in the House of Lords, if we are indeed supposed to be so secular that any religious considerations relating to our society in general are of no importance to our society? Strange, eh?
Why is the act of Bigamy still considered a criminal offence?
Why is the act of Adultery frowned upon towards such perpetrators in a court of law session of a divorce case?
These are just a couple of examples of the opposite, where any claims of a secular society simply do not exist as the laws of our land are entirely governed by Christian ideology.
People who make claim to the contrary and make claims that we have a secular society have forgotten all about the laws of the land and are more than likely those that do not care to practice any form of religion themselves. That’s fine, they have that right, but they too are also subject to the laws of the land.
Basically we do have a Christian ethic society with an element of secularism where it does not interfere with basic fundamental Christian ethics – but we are indeed absolutely not anything of a secular society at large.
These people are misusing the word for their own advantages.
Ignore them as they know not of what they speak.
Andrew you talk crap. I recently gave evidence in court and did no swearing on bibles. You can affirm. It is true that there is still a rump of bishops in the Lords (a tiny minority of little significance) but they are not a law-making body. The commons makes laws and that body is elected. There is no religious element. You clutch at straws.
While we have a Christian heritage we have long moved on. The enlightenment freed of from religious fanaticism and while there are a few fragments clinging on we have an entirely secular government.
In time bigamy and the like will cease to be an offence just as homosexuality is. Your whole premise is hollow.
You persist in arguing for the sake of arguing. You are contrary for the sake of being contrary. In this country we have religious freedom to believe or not believe and Christianity does not make the laws. Thankfully. We are secular.
For goodness sake I know that! Of course you have the right to not partake in an oath on a religious book – I simply referred to an example as to the continued use of religion in our courts. But you couldn’t help yourself but to burst out with “you’re talking crap” because you are on such a loser here that you have to resort to put-down paragraph openings to help keep your trousers up.
You should know better than to try that with me by now, surely?
I think I’ve been in a court of law many more times than most people, too, for all manner of reasons appertaining to my job.
I may well have to lead you towards speeches made in the House of Lords, made by persons of serious religious persuasion that were fundamental to the decision process on a number of very important laws now standing to attention in our every day lives. Christ, you’re frigging myopia floors me.
Excuse me, but is bigamy legal or illegal? Therefore, what is hollow about reference to a legal entity that is indeed as it stands, illegal? What powers of rationality do you employ man? So when the cop stops you speeding at 38 on a 30 and even though they may well be changing the restriction to 40 next month, you’re gonna argue with him?
You are simply a complete basket case at times. Utterly unfathomable, completely all over the place with a ludicrous deficit of powers of lateral thinking, perception and rational.
Are you drinking? Something’s gone way feckin’ wrong, eh?
You are absolutely wrong here Opher. The Commons does NOT make laws. This is solely the responsibility of the Justices of the Supreme Court – an independent body employed by Parliament to ensure that there exists absolutely no encroachment to judiciary matters by any said members of Parliament. The Supreme Court is entirely self-managed, and employ an objective and dispassionate review with the utmost focus upon what is right or wrong, although regulated by Parliament. However, Parliament may not under any circumstances interfere with this judiciary process.
Since 2009, no member of the Supreme Court may sit in either the House of Lords or Commons.
I would take strong issue again with you on your spurious claim that Bigamy will “cease to be an offence”. And I will quote Baroness Hale of Richmond, Deputy President of the Supreme Court, in order to support this. I know you hate “facts” used against any of your arguments – as judgmental as that maybe, however, this quote is entirely factual.
“Marriage is an exceptional contract. People getting married are not in autonomous situations. It is not like doing a commercial deal. People make choices and compromise their own interests for the greater good of the relationship.”
Therefore, your comment conflicts with and undermines the attributes of said “exceptional contract.”
The House of Lords presently contains no less than 26 Bishops of the Church of England. Therefore, by virtue of the tenure of their presence within the HoL during the preparation of new law proposals or amendments and/or revisions to existing laws, it would be reasonable to ascertain that they do in fact carry some weight as their views are as valid as any other member.
I would suggest caution with suggestion that the HoL holds no influence as it is this body that seeks to make and/or revise laws in the first instance.
Perhaps you would be better employed to interpret properly, clearly and concisely, giving precedent to facts and actual situations.
Your manner in expressing yourself is governed by emotion to wit, it is therefore, impossible to seek a fair and considered resolve within the elementary process of debate.
OK, so you didn’t like the Brexit result, but dissenters cannot re-write the rules. That is an unconstitutional act that fundamentally negates democracy and justice.
How much weight do you attach to any given situation?
What are the discriminatory attributes?
To compel and pretend that something does not exist, ie., that of 52% of the voting electorate, is to deny the fundamental right of existence. With respect, this is an ineptitude that may lead to consequences where a tension exists between the dissenters (the minority) and the majority.
The concept of democracy in terms of representing what is right for all is greatly endangered.
Who was it that once said “for one to express themselves as absolutely certain is either a genius or a fool”?
I don’t think you are either of these.
You keep getting floored by my myopia. But persist in belligerence instead of more constructive dialogue. Why’s that?
Bigamy is presently illegal. It won’t be in the future.
Marriage as an institution is fading fast. It is not illegal to have as many wives as you want providing you don’t marry them.
Now – I keep asking why you resort to abuse instead of debate? It lowers the tone and invites responses of a similar nature.
Of course we have a Christian tradition that is still hanging on in various guises but we are not a theocracy and have removed religion from control. The monarch is reduced to pageant and a titular role and a small, ineffective rump of bishops still preside in the Lords.
I’m not sure why we have the Commons at all if they don’t produce the laws? I thought that was what they spent their time doing. So despite having politicians it is the Supreme Court. You live and learn. We don’t need politicians after all.
My above post is constructive, way more so than yours as I quote from the actual people that design the laws!
You have to marry before a woman can be termed “wife”!
There is no such thing as an unmarried wife. That’s why we use the term ‘partner’.
OK, so you want to argue with the #2 of the Judiciary?
Good luck there.
By you not actually knowing who makes the laws kinda puts paid to the end of this strand of discussion.
I think that’s why it was suggested that you’d be best to refer to a book on the British Constitutional Law before making any further comment.
Call them partners. Who cares? The old world of theocratic control has been swept aside. Wife, partner, spouse – who cares? The point is simply that religion has very little influence anymore. Thankfully.
I would have more honest to state “I live and learn” as opposed to the general “you”. Others suffer from no similar confusion on this subject.
The Law of the land cares. Personal Rights are determined by such status.
That’s why they exist in the first place.
So what is the function of parliament? Seems they have no purpose at all?
There are some rights that pertain to marriage – but very few that cannot be circumvented. I have a number of friends who are quite happily not married and have not suffered.
From very little to none at all is confirmation of existence.
Which was my original point.
There does indeed still exist a religious influence within our governing system by the mere presence of such persons.
So basically, you’ve gone the long route to eventually agree with me on that.
Does it really need all this to and fro – when the facts speak for themselves?
I wonder which body of peers in particular would definitely have blocked the call for a return of hanging?
It’s situations such as this where I think their powers maybe fully implemented.
Well if I had ascertained from your comments that you meant that there was a very minor input of religious doctrine into the government of the country I would have agreed with you from the very beginning. But my contention is that it is negligible.
Safar: Just read something else you wrote, which is absolutely ridiculous, are you suggesting you have lost your Freedom of Speech because we are Out of Europe, you have the Freedom to write here, you have the freedom to go out on the streets and state within reason as long as you are not swearing or advocating violence, you have the right to express your views. I know I am living in a multicultural society? In England, the UK and I was not aware we did not have Freedom of Speech, perhaps you should do as you suggested to me go and live abroad perhaps to some of those Countries where you, as a woman, would not dare open your mouth. You don’t like it here anymore no one is forcing you to stay.
Rather an unpleasant tone Anna?
And yours is not, with your snide comments “Donald’s Trophy Wife” your comments regarding Theresa May. I did not personally accuse you of defending muslims raping young girls. You really do like to twist everything. Anyone who does not go along with you, anyone who does not say “yes you are right Opher” you don’t like, anyone who stands up for themselves you try to bring down. You are unable to do that with Andrew so you think you can brow beat me. You just like those that agree with everything you say to make you look big and themselves good, sad! No, Opher you are not worth the upset you cause me, I say very little these days to you in the hope a sensible conversation could be had, but that is impossible with you, you have “to win at any cost”. Your insistence that there should be no Churches no religion no faith in schools, just why don’t you go and live somewhere you would be happier not having any of that. My goodness I made another mistake, in believing in you, such a disappointment.
What do you think she is? A playboy with his glamorous young wife.
My response was to your rude response to Safar -‘You don’t like it here anymore no one is forcing you to stay.’
It is not a game. It is not a question of winning. It is merely explaining views. My views don’t change. I do not brow-beat. I state what I believe. You and Andrew seem to delight in right-wing politics. Not for me.
Now you tell me I should leave my own country too. Where do you suggest might be free of the pernicious reach of religion?
Britain is among the best but it is still far from perfect. My view is to change it for the better not run away. I do not believe in religious indoctrination.
No Opher, you are very much mistaken to tag me with “right-wing” anything. That is such a blindingly stupid remark, but one that completely reflects your lack of good grace and acknowledgement of my right to protest over what I know, what I have experienced and that of what I see on a day-to-day basis.
Because I hate what has happened to large portions of the UK does not automatically label me as “right-wing”. I want to put a stop to it before we do get into such a situation whereby the right-wing does indeed rise it’s ugly head and veer towards a scenario that I do not even want to contemplate.
You’re a stupefyingly ignorant mealy-mouthed man, making such insidious commentary.
I stand politic-centric and detest anything that stands far left or far right. Period.
Well Andrew you protest loudly but continually support right-wing ideas and people. As Liz says – you are a wind-up merchant. You probably don’t believe half of it. You oppose automatically instead of contributing and use belligerent language. What is one to believe?
Wrong – any view that is not as extreme left-wing socialist-liberalist as yours is automatically judged by you as right wing.
I didn’t realise we were playing the Liz says / Simon says game.
Why don’t you let her speak for herself as all she seems to say is “thinks you’re a wind-up merchant” – yet I didn’t see the pull-here string on the back of her head when I met her.
Speak for yourself. I care not less what you say anybody else thinks or says. Not a toss do I care.
Me neither. But don’t put left-wing labels on my totally objective views. Valuing equality, tolerance and freedom doesn’t automatically make me a slave to any doctrine. I just like fairness, that’s all. I guess that’s the way I was brought up.
So were you also brought up to speak behind others backs as you did to me in reply to a post, as above, you made with Anna?
Explain that? Fair to who? Me?
That’s not a sign of being brought up, more like dragged up.
Hardly behind your back. You read it all. It’s a public forum.
I was brought up really well in a very loving home. Just lucky. Not indoctrinated religiously or politically.
So you say, yet lack the good grace to speak direct.
That isn’t any sign in my book of a good upbringing. It is snide, underhand and you have no given rights to use my name as a case to make your point to others, be it negatively or positively.
You can try and defend yourself, but I’ll say you are guilty as charged.
No perfectly reasonably and openly as you an Anna have both conspired and cited each other in pressing your views – nothing snide or underhand. You suddenly take things personally when you are so keen on dishing out the personal abuse. Your posts are full of personal put-downs. Why get upset?
Why the would the likes of me need to “conspire” with anybody else? Are you taking the royal piss?
Like I’m some pansy English mug-shot hiding behind a women’s skirt for protection?
Like yourself, with your “Liz Says na na na na na” comments.
It’s not me that gets his info from the Mystic Meg show or fortune cookies.
Get out of here.
Well perhaps conspire is not quite the right word. Perhaps unite with is a better way of expressing it. The two of you hammer along on the same Brexit/Trump agenda and attempt to portray it as not being right-wing or wrong in any way. You both bolster each other.
Yet more myopia from you.
So, if there only 2 other posters that’s how you conclude?
And of course in no way what so ever is the EU right-wing?
Yeah, right, Opher.
The problem is you can’t just support the bits of the EU you like and forget about the rest.
It stinks, yet you love it and I hate it. Therefore, I’m right-wing?
Well you can interpret it as my myopia. I deduce my opinions from what you write. It is probably not what you think but it certainly comes across as aggressive right-wing attitudes. You align yourself with other right-wingers.
But yes, you are right, there are elements of the EU that are strongly right-wing. As with all political parties and dogma there are things you agree with and things you don’t. They are all adulterated with things I dislike – ‘Even damnation is poisoned by rainbows’. One has to decide whether the things you agree with outweigh the things you don’t.
My opinion is that the good things about the EU (cooperation, dialogue, collaboration, workers rights, human rights and a united coalition etc. etc.) coupled with a move towards a more universal approach to the world are far preferable to an insular, nationalistic approach. I value the liberal values that the EU represents. I also think that some of the problems with the EU can be addressed without dismantling it (bureaucracy, migration, undemocratic processes). Many of the problems now are transitional ones. We, like America, have to find a way of assimilating the poorer countries and raising their quality of life. I envisage we can move to a Europe that operates like the USA.
I greatly enjoy the ability to move freely through Europe and work, receive benefits and experience the cultures.
Economically I think leaving is going to be a big disaster. It will cost a fortune. Put money in the pockets of the rich and every lawyer going and make everyone a lot, lot poorer. That will decimate the public services, give the Tories an excuse for privatising everything (money in the pockets of their chums) and make the poor poorer. That is what I believe will happen.
I think it is a great shame that the years of austerity, coupled with an exaggerated fear of terrorism, and a reaction to mass migration, created such a groundswell of discontent that came out in disastrous results here and in the State.
If the cheap labour from Europe disappears and there aren’t the people to wipe bums in care homes or pick crops in Lincolnshire there will be a lot of bleating. Cos I don’t think the British will do those jobs for the scummy money offered.
What then?
Why conclude that I post in tandem with anybody else?
That is myopic.
If that’s what you still think of the EU after all this time…
I really can’t think what more to say to you.
It’s nothing more
No, you cannot just walk into a lot of EU countries and receive benefit.
Please list those where this happens.
As far many cultures, particularly those from eastern Europe, eh, no thanks.
Myopic seems to be your favourite word of late. I didn’t say ‘in tandem’ though. You just both encourage each other and sing from the same hymn-sheet.
Yes that is what I think of the EU.
This is where we differ. I value a whole wide bunch of cultures and see that as life-affirming. There are always great things to take from them. No culture is worthless even if you do not agree with many of the practices. I love the variety, art, customs, dress and architecture. Even Islam has produced some amazing stuff.
Just to clarify a point from a qualified lawyer’s view: The crime of perjury is the offence of lying in evidence after having sworn an oath on a religious text be it a bible, the Qu’ran or whatever. It is not compulsory to take an oath. You can affirm. If you lie in evidence after having affirmed you can be prosecuted for attempting to pervert the course of justice by giving false evidence in court proceedings. Affirming is not an invitation to lie.
I affirmed.
Have a browse through a textbook on British Constitutional Law, Opher. There you will find that the “State” (whatever you mean by that) is not completely separate from the Church of England. Apart from the fact that someone else pointed out above that bishops are members of the legislative assembly, the Monarch is the head of the Church of England and the ruler of the UK. The country is governed by a tripartite arrangement where power is balanced between Parliament which passes legislation and represents the people; the Monarch whose approval is legally required for every item of legislation excluding statutory instruments and the Judiciary who have a supervisory function over the power exercised by the foregoing bodies and also adjudicate on cases brought by the Crown, that is the Monarch.
The monarch may have such title but in practice does not participate. The role has become redundant. If the Queen began rejecting legislation there would be an uproar. The government of the country is secular.
There are 760 members of the House of Lords of which only 26 are Bishops. Hardly much of a religious input.
If you want to see a theocracy you need to go to Saudi or Iran. The USA is more of a religious government than Britain.
Stick to the point in hand, UK.
There’s another 150 nations that have more of a religious government than Britain. So what?
So the point is that Britain is secular. The church does not hold jurisdiction over law. We are not a theocracy like we used to be.
Not entirely – they vote in HoL. And so do many other people whom also carry religious views. And you will never know what governs their train of thought or decision making process, will you? Therefore, by process of elimination…
What about the Satanists? There must be a few. And the Jedis?
This country has never been a theocracy as far back as the Druids. We have been governed by monarchs since the Romans left. Even Cromwell make himself into a monarch.
Saudi Arabia is not a theocracy. It is ruled by a royal family with a King. Saudi Arabia may be influenced heavily by Islamic scholars but it is not governed by them. Iran was a theocracy immediately after the overthrow of the Shah in 1979. There are important distinctions which you fail to understand, Opher.
You allege the Queen is nothing more than a figurehead and is “powerless”. I don’t agree. The monarch is the most continuous constant in our society. The Queen is the head of the armed forces. During the two 20th century world wars British soldiers fought for the King not for Parliament. To take a hypothetical situation where the Queen refused to endorse an item of legislation and Parliament in response attempt to rid her of that power, there would be an uprising in the country in support of the monarchy in my view. The monarchical tradition goes to the heart of who we are and from where we came through the centuries. Politicians may come and go but the monarchy remains constant and fixed. Just look at how many citizens line the streets to salute the members of the royal family. They don’t do that for politicians.
Your intended desire to abolish all forms of religion and replace it with your “spirituality” whatever that is (to me it is just another version of religion) supports my view that you tend toward an illiberal, intolerant form of left-wing dictatorship favoured by Corbyn etc and practised across the globe under communist regimes. It’s disappointing. You consistently refer to the “freedom” young people sought in the 60s but you appear in favour of denying freedom of choice.
Well Bede that might be technically true in terms of Britain not being a theocracy but in reality the power of the church was so great that it directly vied with kings and kings paid homage to the Pope so, pragmatically, the church ruled. It was Henry 8th who broke away from Papal dominance and declared himself leader of the church – so bringing church and monarchy together – so again the church still dominated.
I would contend that our present monarch plays a low-key role and is largely titular. She does not exert power over the commons whatever the actual situation is. I believe if she tried to exert the power she has vested in her status it might well generate a furore that could lead to her being deposed.
While once again you are correct to suggest that the armed forces pay homage to the monarch in practice I believe they are deployed by the government under the scrutiny of parliament.
I’m not sure what support the monarchy has in the country. I’m not sure that anybody would want to put it to the test. If push came to shove I believe it would stir up a hornet’s nest.
I think you are looking at the situation from a legal perspective and not the reality of everyday layman’s life. Back at the turn of the twentieth century it was God, King and Country – I don’t believe that is the case today. Times have changed. While the Queen is revered the monarchy is not.
Bede, I think you have known me for nigh on fifty years – surely long enough to know that I am neither some rabid highly political left-winger nor intolerant. I have nothing against people practicing the religion of their choice as a personal practice. What I take issue with is the indoctrination of young children, fundamentalism of any description, foisting religion on people through public institutions or evangelical missionary work or sectarian intolerance. That’s all. I do not think religion should intrude into the public arena in the way it does. I would take religion out of schools, abolish all religious schools, madrassas and other forms of indoctrination and allow adults to find whatever religion they want. That is a long way off what you are suggesting I am saying.
I am extremely liberal, tolerant and wanting choice. What I am opposed to is imposition. Imposing dogma into young minds should be a crime. It is brainwashing them for life. What adults choose to believe is up to them. I wouldn’t wish to restrict that at all. I am an antitheist in terms that I believe religion is harmful superstition. We are better off without it. But I’m not militant about it. I think it will die the death.
I know you have a thing about Corbyn but I like him and a lot of his policies. It is a shame that the media and Blairites wouldn’t give him a chance. I think your portrayal of him is too critical. He’s a lame duck going nowhere but not because what he says doesn’t make sense. I think the media and establishment work against him. It’s a bit like ‘A Very British Coup’. He seems to lack leadership skills and seems a bit intransigent but it is hard to judge when we receive such a distorted media portrayal.
Whatever they hold they may use. Who knows?
But only a fool would be certain that we have an entirely secular government system.
But one thing we can be sure of is that it isn’t a Christian government system, is it?
The laws are fairly specific and avoid any elasticity. We’ve all got friends – but that’s not the point.
The law courts do have make life changing decisions where there are problematic situations – Bigamy would be one of them. So you’ve got a few friends who weren’t married and maybe split up – so rarely is there too big a deal regards that. If children are involved it’s a bigger deal.
If people were only partners and one died but had made a will, no problem.
Were there is no will, now you have a major problem. My fiend who died left his partner of 16 years with none of his pension. She got nothing!
So I’m afraid to say, you completely under evaluate the due process of law here.
Read the bloody book, will you please!
It is a bit of a faff but there are all manner of ways of avoiding problems if you are not married. My good friend died. He was not married but they’d sorted it out before hand. No problem. His ‘wife’ didn’t experience any more of a problem than if they had been married. It’s more of an inconvenience than a problem.
When it comes to children there are some complications but not many that can’t be dealt with.
Why are we discussing this? Bigamy is a stupid law that dates back into the past and should be done away with.
That’s what I said before.
But you seemed to think the law was laissez-faire.
Why? Partially in explanation as to what the Supreme Judiciary do – they write the laws that are asked for.
The Commons originate and debate them and send up to Lords for approval, if approved the Judiciary review if they are lawful in the first place then write them up. Then The Lords discuss the laws again, might make revisions for further Judiciary work, might not, then Lords implements them. Everybody has a roll in the process.
Basically.
Well that seems to me an extreme on splitting hairs. The Commons originate and debate the laws. The Judiciary just have the task of checking them. So, as I said – The commons create the laws. The Judiciary implement the laws created by the Commons. The Lords oversee the laws and can make amendments – but I believe they have to be approved by the Commons. So why the nitpicking?
I said the Commons make the laws. The Judiciary work on what they’ve been instructed to work on. Everyone has a role but they originate from the politicians in the Commons who are appointed by democratic process.
No Opher, I fear you misunderstood and completely and utterly underestimate the Judiciary. 100% underestimation.
The Commons do NOT make the laws. They discuss the need for one or the need for the amendment of an existing one as brought forth by MP’s.
“So as you said” is absolutely incorrect. The Commons idea is then debated at length by the Commons select committee, who in turn if considered worthy pass up to HoL for their discussion. They also have their own agendas also brought forward by their own peers. They too are responsible for usually most of the more complex laws, whereas Commons stuff is more likely to be a Poodle licence requirement of something low level.
The Judiciary have in fact ALL the hard work to do. The very lengthy time consuming and detailed stuff – whether such a law is permissible under legal jurisdiction, how it may be enforced and implemented in order to do the job required of it and exactly how it is worded. And as you know it is clause after clause after sub-clause after sub-clause – none of which was ever concluded by the Commons.
So no, the Commons are very, very junior level players.
I must say, you are very very good at coming out with a load of misinformed bullshit. Then you get an informative reply from the likes of me to put you right. Then you re-write my text into yours and try and pass it off as if you had known this all along, having forgotten all about your original post in the first place.
That is remarkable.
Who are you trying to kid here?
Buy a book on the constitution and stop pretending.
Me thinks you are being pedantic. As you said and I said – the Commons originate the laws. The Judiciary have the task of implementing what the Commons have originated after it has been through the HOL. It is a bit pedantic to suggest that the Judiciary is the major player. The originator is the major player. The Judiciary are the nuts and bolts.
In my view it’s a bit like saying St Paul’s was not a Wren building. It was the product of the builders.
Opher, you are now completely in wind-up mode, just for the bedevilment of it.
How could you not ascertain anything – when I clearly said that it is untrue that we have a totally secular state – as stated by you – when we have in fact, 26 Bishops in the HoL!
It was a no-brainer when I first made such a statement and remains ever more so now that you have gone around the world again arguing against the clearest point of fact on the the whole bleedin’ page.
I’ll simplify it even further.
No Bishops in HoL = no official religion at all in our governmental process.
26 Bishops in HoL = some, but not much, but none either.
Secular = none at all
Therefore, we are not entirely secular. Mostly, but not entirely.
Can we put this to bed now please.
Are you from Barcelona?
That should have read – 26 Bishops in HoL = some, but not much, but not none at all.
I agree – time to put it to rest. There is a slight religious input. Not enough to make in non-secular in my opinion. What’s the argument? I’m just thankful that we don’t have the religious fanatics in charge like they were in the time of Thomas Cromwell – when torture and death were the fayre for non-believers. Thank god for the enlightenment (I mean that jokingly of course).
King Henry VIII was in charge during the time of Thomas Cromwell not religious fanatics. I am unsure whom you refer to when you say religious fanatics. Virtually every citizen believed in Christianity at the time but Henry, through the agency of Cromwell, destroyed the monasteries and broke away from the control of Papal Rome. Religious officials were burned at the stake during the reigns of Mary and Elizabeth but the executions were as much for political reasons as for religious reasons. Mary wanted to restore the Catholic faith so persecuted Protestants. Elizabeth was a Protestant whom Spain wished to replace with the Catholic Queen of Scots so Catholics were seen as a threat to her reign.
If Hilary Mantel’s books on Thomas Cromwell are to be believed there was the most horrendous torturing, persecution and execution going on under the pretext of religion. Have you read them Bede?
Religion usually has a political/power motive. My Grandfather worked at Smithfield Market where they used to burn them.
I’m selective and you are not?
Only a damned fool would believe a Police stat on this issue given that they are told what to do and given that the rules of entry for what constitutes an offence were also changed.
So any stat on this issue would indicate an increase, wouldn’t it?
You made claim to knowing of 5, the very same 5 that you keep mentioning, month in, month out, yet it’s never risen to 6, has it? What does that tell you. It was knee-jerk reaction, to be expected and probably no more than normal but because it was flavour of the month they made mountains of these stats.
Yet where I live absolutely surrounded by thousands from all over, I’ve not heard of one single post-Brexit racist anything. Why, because we don’t do racism in any shape or form here. We have always had loads of foreigners in our midst.
So my question is, where are these 41% living?
Why has reportage sunk to nothing levels on the media now?
Who pushed for disclosure? Why? To just further their Remain cause?
Etc, etc.
And bought right into it, didn’t you.
The blind leading the blind.
Oh no. I said we are all selective. That is psychologically how minds work. We are all guilty.
You make supposition after supposition.
I’m glad they don’t do racism where you live. They do here.
So your supposition is that the increase in hate-crime was manufactured in order to create a case for the Remain cause. Sounds farfetched to me and out of line with my personal experience.
I’m a little out of touch with contact with friends of late (still in the throes of moving). I spend my days lugging stuff around, painting rooms and trying to create order out of chaos. My internet time is grabbed between work. I’m pretty knackered after three weeks. I’ll try and update the racist incident situation when I get a moment. I’m heartened that you are so interested.
I don’t know about this selection Opher, because although I speak for myself, I’m not thinking about anything else other than the subject at hand.
Considering 1) I hold no political bias 2) no religious beliefs
3) am not a closeted individual, ie, I’ve been around the block a bit – therefore, there’s nothing fundamentally holding me back as I harbour nothing that may cause me to do so.
I automatically resist believing 50% of what I hear that’s put forward as a fact – particularly this kind of thing as opposed to scientific reports etc and time and again I’ve proved myself right with that discipline. There again, I’m not as naive/gullible as yourself. I’m extremely street-wise.
I’ve had many psychometric tests that confirm that I am very much my own man and very difficult to persuade without solid foundation – hence why I got so far ahead in management at quite an early age. Aged 25, I had 400 people reporting to me. My delegation skills were unquestioned. Nobody could ever fuck with me at work.
I have held so many staff disciplinary’s to know that most people lie in order to advance their position and it is never ending some of the lengths they go to.
Too many people are attention seekers for one reason or another. And I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been adjudicating on claims of racism, sexism, bullying and other general unpleasantness only to finally conclude that indeed no such incident ever happened.
Ask a person the same question 50 times and they will crack.
Eventually they will crack and admit to the truth.
I’ve had women claim sexual assault stuff through jealousy of other women – so they punish, or try to, the man they fancied in the first place. It’s a crazy fucked up world but I’m well attuned to it.
The 50 times repetition of the same question was the best management tool that I ever employed. I swore by it and the results were brilliant. This method did of course raise a few eyebrows from personnel, sorry, human resources, as they insist upon being called these days. They didn’t have the guts and would take the first answer given to them. They couldn’t solve a noughts and crosses puzzle.
Taught to me by my cop cousin.
Don’t get me entirely wrong, we do have a bunch of wrong `uns who do engage in hatred and racist stuff, but they are spartan and not tolerated. We don’t have teams of boot boys shouting threats outside mosques etc.
Yes, I do think it was hijacked solely in support of Remain.
Why would it be far fetched? It is the perfect ploy. It’s also the easiest thing to do – to cast dispersion on a quantifiable number of people in one foul swoop.
Realistically, we didn’t need an election to give people risible reasons to be anti-johnny foreigner all of a sudden.
It was also slightly peculiar that a backseat was taken on the reportage of the Rochdale Asian sex gang stuff, it just dropped into the ether as precedent was make of much lesser, unpleasant yes, but much lesser crime level reports, as numerous as they may have been.
But again, they too have died the death. It’s been about 2 months now since they were media’s focus of attention.
There again I know a Pakistani guy who calls every other Pakistani a “Paki bastard” to their face. But there again somethings just don’t translate or travel well southwards. Half the population of England wouldn’t have a clue as to our humour and if heard without knowing exactly what was going on would instantly consider it as racism and inflammatory.
You also have to consider too, what they call each other in their own language.
So basically we will have a load of bloody do-gooder liberals probably over-hearing stuff, half-seeing stuff they only partially understand and tick em off onto the list.
I had a Turkish lady in my place yesterday (she asked if she could leave her case for a few hours) and referred to black men as “black bastards”, having had some problems with a couple of them in Edinburgh. So I would suggest that such terms of endearment are endemic right across the board.
That makes pretty good sense to me.
I think you will find that we are all psychologically influenced by attitudes or groups that we ally ourselves to. There is nobody who is completely their own man. We attach to viewpoints and go on from there. I fear you delude yourself. You are affected one way or another by everything that goes on around you.
My life experience is different to you and just as varied and full of high level interaction. I certainly mediated on all manner of incidents between adults and kids. I lived on the streets, hitch-hiked round and have travelled extensively. Why do you assume you have experienced more? I’ve lived longer and seen most things. I’ve worked at all different levels and seen life. Who’s to judge?
My experience leads me to believe most racist and sexist incidents are real. I do accept that there are occasions when jealousy creates false accusations. I’ve come across that too. I deployed restorative practice to get to the bottom of incidents and it worked extremely well with adults and children. Rarely did I not manage to resolve issues among my 120 staff and 800 students.
I, like you, do not believe half of the material or bias of the media. We are all being manipulated. But I do believe there is an upsurge in racism and nationalism and I do not believe that you have any better handle on it than me – just a different viewpoint. I will get my head above the parapet to talk to a few people when I get a minute. This move is all encompassing!
All your experiences are hitch-hiking etc are 40 years ago.
Living on streets? – that’s a new one.
I don’t know what you’d mean by “high-level” interaction.
Mediating on kids is somewhat different from that of adults.
So, there is no correlation with that aspect.
I think you are completely wrong with this cod-psychology you have. Given that I’d know what I was dealing with would focus attention on given facts and nothing else.
I’d be psychologically influenced by nothing else other than getting the truth out of them.
I’m not entirely convinced of your claim that you only believe half of what the media tells you. I think this more of a recent change. You perhaps do now, but not so much before.
Well it is true that I do not go hitch-hiking too much these days but I certainly did a lot of it up until about twenty years ago. I used to hitch to Harper gigs all over the place.
On two occasions I have been with friends in a van tootling around Europe, I’ve squatted in London and lived in a memorable old house with good friends from all manner of places. Admittedly that was forty years back but it’s like riding a bike. I learnt to get on with, and understand all types of people and situations. Don’t underestimate it.
I think you greatly underestimate the influence of psychological factors on behaviour. My experience of psychology leads me to believe that we are all heavily influenced by many factors even if we do not think we are. You cannot escape it. Much as you don’t like the idea we are caught in the zeitgeist of the time and affected by the ethos that we attach ourselves to. We are not islands.
Mantel is not a historian. She writes historical fiction. I don’t read fiction but I did watch the television adaption of the life of Thomas Cromwell which supported what I said above. There were burnings of Catholics and Protestants but the reason was more political than religious. For example the Norfolks have remained one of the staunchest Catholic aristocratic families throughout history. They didn’t pose a risk to the era of the Protestant monarchy in England so they could not be accused of treason and blasphemy and burned at the stake. It was the century of the Reformation and a power struggle between the new religion of Protestantism and the old religion of Catholicism. Killings have always taken place between members of different religions but so have killings between members of different groups irrespective of their religion or in the exercise of power by left-wing/right wing extremists for example – Stalin, Hitler; Mao Zedang; Pol Pot etc. Who knows maybe Jeremy Corbyn if he ever gains power!!
You ought to read Mantel. She is very good. It is fiction but very well researched and based on historical ‘facts’. The books were far more detailed than the TV production (although that was very good).
Humans have a propensity for cruelty. Both religion and politics have given excuses for the most heinous crimes. Power creates even more hideous permutations. Fundamentalism of political and religious persuasion gives vent to extremes of violence. That’s why I despise it.
But it is OK Bede I don’t think Corbyn is planning any gulags, killing fields, concentration camps or public executions by beheading or burning. We’re safe.
What are you on about Opher?
Anna didn’t need to come back to me on anything. I agreed with her and told her why.
Sometimes replies aren’t really necessary most of the time, but I realise you feel the need to reply to every comment no matter how trivial, jamming everybody’s in-box up with crap.
As for the other lady – she would have known that would be a pointless exercise as my questions were rhetorical. What was she going to reply with?
She obviously hadn’t even thought about or knew about what I was leading towards.
Perhaps I coerced her to find all that stuff out for herself though. Better she does it for herself.
I feel that if someone has taken the trouble to put up a comment it is only courteous to acknowledge it with a reply.
Let’s hope Safar is off investigating right now.
Seriously, who cares what you did 40 years ago, its irrelevant. I’ve been to more places than I can ever remember being and would have to dig out old passports to see for myself.
Yes, clearly Remain created a hate-crime bandwagon as it didn’t seem to exist before, so something started it.
Seemingly the bandwagon has served its purpose and has
now completely quietened down. Why is that?
I completely disagree with the last paragraph – you’ll have to speak for yourself as I don’t easily fall into that trap.
But my professional life experiences are 180 from yours.
They do not compare. I wasn’t dealing with some kids.
That’s where your experiences greatly differ from my own as your world of psychology was based at a very junior level.
I greatly underestimate nothing as you suggest – not having a bloody clue what I did or how I went about it – so you’re wasting your time here.
As I stated, I was very much my own man and the psychology reports – numerous of – confirmed this time and again. You’re trying to argue with psychologists who design these things are you? You’re some guy to be so qualified to do so. I may need to laugh here.
Firstly – what you do in life at any age is not irrelevant. It is part of life’s experience and you assimilate it. My experience is immense. I’ve worked and lived at all different levels. I’ve seen life, death and everything in-between. I’ve saved lives and seen people die.
Remain did not create a wave of hate-crime – the Brexiteers did. It was real and I certainly felt it and heard about it – and not just through the media. You saw that you are free of bias but you are fully willing to accept anything that agrees with your case and reject anything that doesn’t – and you claim not to be psychologically affected by anything. I find that amazing. Once again I tell you – we all are. You’re no different. As for the bullshit about psychological tests that prove you are totally unaffected. All that would do is establish you as completely autistic. While you may be on the spectrum, probably like me, I do not believe you are at the far end. I studied psychology with my degree and with my training. Education is based on psychology. I taught it and studied it – hence no cod-psychology.
Now don’t give me this bullshit about your great experience being so much more than mine – a full 180 degrees. That is crap and you know it. I think you maybe should adopt a tad more humility.
Firstly the skills to handle a bunch of kids in a classroom requires a shill-set well beyond most people. Time after time I’ve witnessed arrogant fools coming in to address kids thinking it is a breeze and being ripped to pieces, falling flat on their face. It takes extraordinary skills to be a teacher. Most of the teachers don’t even manage it. I’ve hardly ever seen anyone from outside doing a half decent job.
Secondly I wasn’t just a teacher. I was a Headteacher. I managed and led my school through three outstanding Ofsted’s and made it into one of the best schools in the country from one that was crap. I managed a £3.5 million business. I hired and fired 140 staff, managed and lead 900 students, dealt with MPs, media, inspectors, health and safety, police, fire, social services, distinguished guests, architects, solicitors, builders, cooks, a range of services, the council, unions, business people, bus services, and the rest. The people I dealt with weren’t just run-of-the- mill. I dealt with the Chief Inspectors, Secretaries of State, Judges, Colonels and Heads of Service. So don’t go making out that you’re some hotshot working at a whole other level. My experience and skill-set is equal to anything you’ve got. It is so myopic of you to put people down in walks of life that you do not have a clue about. That is like me saying that all you did was order about a bunch of chamber maids, desk clerks and concierges. I’m sure the planning and organisation you undertook is just as difficult as mine but certainly no more difficult. Mine was a fourteen hour day, seven days a week job. So don’t go trying to belittle my job and making out yours was at such a higher level. That is bullshit.
Opher – you are not a trained psychologist. I’m glad you’re happy with the verdict expressed in your philosophy text book and may it serve you well.
Such generalisation served so sincerely in the certain belief of its utmost truth, too.
Was there any dispute you did what you did?
I might have had more than one building to contend with though.
The skill-set for you excluded the responsibility of having to make large sums of money.
Where do you see any similarity here? That was my number 1 priority – making money.
The psychology of making money. That’ll be the bit that you didn’t study at college.
I wouldn’t have much to do with floor staff as you suggested, but I would with the management people who oversee them.
“The planning and organisation was just as difficult as yours and certainly no more difficult”
Ha, ha, ha. Are you joking? Do you think just opening an hotel took no more to do than what you had to do? Dream on! Very large hotels with a lot of action going on? You really don’t have any idea. You would spend a year the same as I would hope to achieve in revenue in one month.
Never mind.
Andrew – you have no idea. To so arrogantly suppose that what you did was more difficult when you have never experienced it is foolish. I think it is you that has no idea.
Making money? What’s so hard about that? Forging futures for thousands of kids – so much more worthwhile and valuable – so much harder, so much more important.
The complexities are large and I honestly think you’d have trouble, considering you walked into a building. I didn’t and most often arrived to a very large sand pit.
You had a typical localised experience. You worked with personnel from public services which would not be unusual.
There’s really not much common ground regards myself.
Weren’t you a head for just 5 years or so?
If it was so rewarding why quit so early?
What’s so hard about making money could be a one shilling short of a quid question…
Good bloody grief!
Neither were you running 24hr operations or with one thousand people drinking.
Also for many kids their real education starts in the work place.
Another might say ‘so much more for call centers and job centers’.
To compare the complexities of jobs and roles without any experience of them is futile. You can have no idea of the complexity of being a Headteacher. No you don’t get to work with personnel from public services; you worked with people from everywhere at every level. There was very little support. You had to make decisions without support. In legal situations you did not have representation or support but were expected to know all of the legal side and represent yourself. I was threatened with prison on a number of occasions. The finances were dire and you had to manage on a shoestring.
I was a Head for five years and left when my pension was threatened by the Tories and I was able to do the things I wanted while I was still young enough – travel, write and read. The stress levels were extremely high and you had no life whatsoever. I had been in education for thirty six years and in Senior Management for seventeen. I went out at the top with my school being recognised by the Secretary of State in the Guild Hall in London as one of the very best in the country and results through the roof. Just a year later it went into ‘Need to Improve’ as the guy who took over made a pig’s ear out of it. I missed it a lot but I would not have produced all my books or travelled and read. I don’t regret it though I still miss the pressure and fulfilment of a hard job done well. You can’t help being affected by the status, recognition and pride.
None of the kids from my school thought that education starts in the workplace. There were a large contingent from the council estates who had no support or aspirations. Those were the ones we had to focus on and we succeeded. Nobody left my school without being able to read and write and all clutching a bunch of GCSE certificates. Some were eager to get earning money and get out there and many came back a year later and said that it wasn’t what they had thought and they missed it.
Your view of education is based on poor schools and the past. They had changed immensely. Teaching is an art. Teachers are not the lazy bastards of my youth. Most are intelligent, creative and work incredibly hard.
Yes, I agree on the futility of compare – which is exactly what I had said, isn’t it?
But I’d start first base with just your budget of 3.5 million – as expressed as 4 million previously. However, you’re right, there is no compare.
But you fail to acknowledge working to a building schedule simultaneously with getting everything to do with operations ready, trained and implemented. That’s everything from scratch.
Nobody threw a curriculum at me and said get on with it.
There’s an immense difference in very basic terms.
But if you wish to publish your job description as you seem prone to do now on too numerous occasions, fell free.
You rattle on like you were the only bloke who ever had such a job.
Basically, you had, whether you chose to consider it or not, very fixed parameters, a from-to. I didn’t.
One phone call to your local education authority would have clarified any legal concerns for you, so it’s hardly an issue of contention to be used in defense of your busy schedule.
I also cannot think of what kind of legal complexities you would have encountered in such an establishment.
As for being threatened with prison on several occasions no less, what on earth were you doing to warrant such threat in the first place? I’d think they’d have to prove guilt first before any threat of prison would come to the fore, so, a slight exaggeration there perhaps.
Were my pension ‘threatened’, that wouldn’t be nearly good enough reason for me to pack up and leave. That’s a very poor excuse.
Are you sure you weren’t gently persuaded just to leave quietly?
Whatever, your entire story comes across very negatively, so perhaps you weren’t best suited for such a role as the stress factors were obviously too high for you.
Not everybody is cut out to be a leader or makes for a good leader once they get there.
And just how would your kids ever know that their real education does start in the workplace when they haven’t reached that point yet and are still sitting in a classroom all day?
I never heard of any school kid (in your case ‘many’ no less) ever going back to school after having left to express dismay about their new life in work. That is a remarkable claim.
There would have to be something mentally wrong with them.
That’s quite incredible that all your students left with GCSE’s.
So you had no dunces at all (out of 800 or 900 depending upon which above post is read) who were simply unable to do exams? I’d be very hard pressed to believe that.
Perhaps this was around the time when the exam authorities cheated to get better stats, by bringing the pass marks down to 30%. Even so, when everyone passed?
Had I been granted that privilege, I’d have cleaned up.
You wouldn’t know what my view of schools is.
The one I went to was an award winner for years running.
I left with 3 A-levels, despite doing very little work, was absent far too often for no good reason and there was nothing they could do to inspire me to want to do any better.
I mostly hated the place. There again some swots loved it.
But I’m all too aware of too many kids still leaving schools today with nothing.
Every time you reply you demonstrate your ignorance of the job. There is no curriculum for running a school or leisurely chats with Country Hall. Support is non-existent. My prison threats came from the Chief Inspector who threatened me over the way I dealt with a drug dealing incident and was looking to prosecute me for being in possession of a large quantity of dope – sufficient to be accused of dealing. What a fool he made of himself. I was accused of interviewing students without adults present contrary to European Human Rights legislation and of a major health and safety breach by allowing a plumber to go to fix a major broken pipe (4 inch pipe) that was flooding the school without giving him the asbestos regs. I think I was guilty of that one.
If you noticed I took my school from satisfactory to three times outstanding and when I left it went back to need to improvement. Enough said on my leadership and management skills. The governors offered me more money to stay on. I’ve no real regrets though I would liked to have done a year or two more. I wanted to get all the writing sorted.
If you want to see operations on drinking – then try running a school disco!!
But seriously – stop trying to compare two very different jobs. I’m sure yours was very exacting too but don’t go applying your knowledge of schools to the rigours of headship. You only saw the tip of an iceberg.
So for you to turn round and state that I “greatly underestimate the psychological influences on behaviour”!
Not just underestimate, but greatly!
In my own place of work, too!
Yeah, right, he says sitting in a school. The only state school to never have a state authority curriculum. Yeah, right.
Then gives an account of his job description to prove his worth.
You’re very naive and closeted in a microcosm of your own making. You remain clueless as to the big wide working world out there.
Oh no, not the schoolboy selling a bit of dope story again.
Was this the biggest thing that ever happened to you?
Really, it doesn’t even warrant a mention.
So you were threatened with prison for collecting some bits of dope – really small scores for small money? And you didn’t laugh? you took that seriously? It wouldn’t have been me.
What would you have done had the pupils been buying MDMA or cocaine?
But I would say that you were damned stupid not to call the police in a lot sooner with this issue. And you probably deserved a warning from them for behaving in a manner above the law.
In retrospect that was rather an irresponsible action on your part, I’d have thought, wasn’t it?
Why were you dealing with a plumber?
Couldn’t you delegate that duty to a janitor or your deputy?
That’s incredible.
Don’t tell me anymore please, because you were at such a lower level than myself on every level. You weren’t even in the same world.
Fine Andrew. Dream on.
It is fine by me, because I have nothing to exaggerate.
There again, my job was never threatened because I couldn’t delegate someone to deal with a bloody plumber.
Well part of that is that you don’t reveal anything about your work, responsibilities, feelings, views or personal stuff. I don’t know what your responsibilities were or your job title. All very vague. For someone who was such a wonder-man you seem to have come down with a crash. Is that what the resentment is all about?
For the record my problem was caused by delegation. Arriving at school before anyone else the caretaker reported the problem and I instructed him to get a plumber down there as quickly as possible. He took me at my word and didn’t take the guy to the office for the asbestos report. Blame was on me for not instructing him properly. If the office had been manned it wouldn’t have happened. But I don’t know why I’m bothering to explain. All you’re interested in is nit-picking holes and crowing.
Opher, we have been down this road before. Your memory is shot. This is the last time I do this.
In summary:
I trained with BTH & InterContinental for 56 months. Only 8 from 32 made it through.
I then worked for Hilton Int’l in London for several years where I specialised in Food & Beverage management, which includes conferences and banqueting.
I along with an ex-BTH colleague bought an old 16th century coaching inn in Angus, Scotland and did it all up. It was a hovel when we bought it and we chucked money at it and did all year round business, weddings, bands, hunting-shooting-fishing season – always full. I worked it for a year but co-owned it for 5 years. After that first year I moved down the road to my next proper job.
Then I led the F&B team at Gleneagles Hotel, then the #1 resort-conference-golf hotel in the world. I had 200 people under me. My revenues were twice that of the rooms and 3 times that of golf and equestrian, at £10 million per year.
Then I went to Asia to manage an exclusive private club for south east Asia’s top bank and finance people in Jakarta, named Enteos. My satellite boss (honorary) was the deputy President of Indonesia. I knew all the top brass of Indonesia’s government and several hundred Ambassadors and their staff, as well as all the top money guys. These places have everything, multiple restaurants, all kinds of banqueting and conference facilities including a cinema theatre presentation suite, spa etc. We could seat 1,500. We were on the top floors 30-32 of a business only skyscraper.
People could do business meetings outwith the spotlight of media as it was very secretive in that respect. Although we also did a lot of general conference facility for their companies and personnel.
The night city views were amazing.
The membership fees are high and membership dictated by one’s credibility and professional position.
I then worked in Kenya, managing Kenya’s #1 resort hotel, the Windsor Golf & Country Club in Nairobi, whilst waiting for my next post in Jakarta which had been delayed for a multitude of reasons. All the wealthy Indians who had been thrown out of Uganda by Amin and the normal white stinking rich international European crowd you find in such places.
I had to lose 60 staff in one day following a routine Aids test.
Although we were 12 km out, Nairobi is quite dangerous and we had a dozen armed guards on patrol and gates duty 24/7.
Back to Jakarta, this was a new build project for Rosewood Hotels, the most exclusive hotel company in the world. They do not market themselves as their private motto is “if you haven’t heard of us, you can’t afford us.” They run the Lanesborough on Hyde Park Corner and a suit for one night will set you back about £25k.
I returned as Operations Director for Rosewood’s interests in SE Asia, including Singapore and Kuala Lumpur, but priority was overseeing the new-build development of the 6-star hotel, large private members club for all the areas top guys in mining – diamonds, oil, gas, other gem stones, timber etc. Mega wealthy people and some very powerful, dangerous bastards.
Plus about 100 adjoining private apartments on the site area, starting prices at $2m rising to around 10m for members and government only.
I had to flog these off (oversee, I had people to do that) to the elite as well. Not too difficult as they were rather attractive and so were the young women doing the sales. This was mid 90’s during the glut of Asian money flowing everywhere.
If you were a top player you had to join the club, no question.
I’d charge you $150k as joining fee, $8k per month membership fee, plus what you spent on monthly account basis. Revenues ran into the $millions every month.
As per usual, most of my HOD’s were European, but I always hired a Chinese lady as the accountant. Chinese female accountants will make you more money than any guy ever will. Opened that operation and ran it for 2 years.
Then I got posted off to Dallas with Rosewood to their beautiful Mansion on Turtle Creek hotel and also their HQ offices.
But I don’t really enjoy HQ stuff, really too dull for me after a year of that so I asked for a transfer and they wanted me to go to Riyadh for another new build, but I didn’t fancy Riyadh at all and that was all they had being a small exclusive company with just 20 world operations, so I left for something else. Perhaps the only regrettable move I ever made and should have hung with them.
Initially to go work for Sheraton in Dubai which was pretty good, then a really interesting new build privately owned hotel in Dubia with 6 completely different themed restaurants and 6 bars designed by myself and with perhaps the busiest nightclub I have ever seen anywhere, again designed by me. I even bought the sound-system. All that was great fun for me to do as I could throw in all my experience.
After that for Grand Hyatt in St.Lucia and finally to the Maldives, as always as Operations Director.
Having reached my money savings target having done this stuff for 30 years and left having had my fill of dealing with Maldevian Islamic rapists (staff) and western teenage girls in swimsuits.
Being on an island, it’s rather difficult if not impossible to not have to deal with such matters personally. I was really slumming it having to personally deal with this kind of thing but given that we were the busiest all-year round resort with occupancy at 106%, I can fly people out to other resorts in the Seychelles on a seaplane in an instant. You can’t have any adverse incidents happening on an island. That was my #1 priority as I had no worries about the actual business as it was full every day, all year.
We’d do around $40 million per year. 70% were Japs, so no shortage of big money clients.
All through these years I always personally oversaw the Food & Beverage outlets as they are the nerve center of any hotels success. I would where possible design everything to do with them from lighting, decor, room layout, tabletop, menu food design or bar tariffs, all the way to staff uniform.
Naturally, I would chose the wine menus, after sampling everything. I must have broken the balls of many a wine salesman.
Needless to say the magnitude of training and coaching was a massive discipline for all my line managers. I never gave a seconds thought to the running costs as without such progressive programmes, you fall short in all directions.
10 expertly trained staff are worth more to me than 10 empty unsold rooms. I could fill the rooms with one phone call.
Basically, I never worked in a Premier Inn and worked as Ops for the 3 top companies in the world. I was very good at it (otherwise I’d never get there) but gradually over the years the novelty, interest and all the great perks that go with such positions begin to dull and I got bored and wanted out. Even though I knew most people would kill to have my job.
So, I moved to Cyprus to live, where I bought 2 shops and rented 2 others and started my own food import business servicing the expats on the south of the island, where most with money and in retirement live.
Great business for 3 years, terrible for the next 2, so sold up and cleared out before I actually lost any physical money, although I reckon I lost about E40k in potential revenue that I otherwise would have previously made pre-EU economic crisis. That’s the downside with the EU that most here in UK are completely oblivious towards.
They haven’t much knowledge about actually doing business in EU when the supply is from UK, as opposed to the other way around, ie., normal.
Anyway, that’s it in a nutshell. I was in the top 10% bracket of people in the world-wide hotel industry where people asked me if I would work for them, then latterly a lowly independent shop owner.
Now I just kick-back, go to concerts, write about music blah for a number of things, listen to the terrible albums I get sent, make up for that misery by going shopping quite frequently for albums I want to hear, make music cd-r’s for my blind friends through the Humanists organisation, help a young, local 16 year old kid with his homework and exam studies (his parent’s have little education between them), he’s doing very well, too, do lunch and dinner with a couple of girlfriends – marriage is for mugs – and answer to no man. If the money ever runs out, it runs out. I could not give a toss, but my step-father will die, he’s now 89 and I know what’s coming my way. I actually couldn’t give a toss about most things except that I really can’t smoke a few joints of an evening anymore. But I make great brownies and scones to make up for that loss. Paki-Black Hash scones with raspberry jam and Devonshire cream!
I should have had them on my afternoon tea menus.
So no, Opher, I lead the life of Riley and suffer from nothing of the sort that you mentioned.
However, given my background and utmost dedication to the welfare and success of thousands of foreign (to me at least) employees, I do take exception to your finger pointing claims that I am in any way “right wing”.
Had I been you, that janitor would have been fully trained before he ever hit my floor.
Well that is the first time you have ever gone into such detail. But very impressive.
As for my caretaker. When you have such a tight budget and pay so poorly you do not employ intelligent people. My office staff were fully trained. He should have taken them there but they weren’t in first thing in the morning so he just took the guy down without processing him. It was an emergency with tons of water flooding the place from a huge old cast iron pipe. The school would have had to be closed with all the mayhem that entails. Unfortunately there was asbestos cladding around the pipe. The buck stops with me.
What tf are you on about now with your old woman nonsense about me and Anna being in tandem?
You must be completely shot of any self confidence to conclude that. Good grief!
You’re so fucking weak and meek, man.
Don’t be so daft. You don’t run a successful school by being meek and weak. In your dreams.
I cannot for one minute see where the self-confidence comes in. The two of you worked the same seam of grime. What’s lacking in confidence to point that out? Don’t see your logic.
Come off it Opher. “Lived on the streets”? When and where was that? I’ve known you since 1968 just after you left school and were still living with your parents. During that time you never lived on the streets. People who slept on the benches on the Embankment at that time were living on the streets. You were not one of them. You may have dossed down occasionally in a squat (which were popular at the time) or in an overcrowded student house but you have never lived on the streets. I’ve slept in a shop doorway in Holbeach, Lincolnshire, on the pavement in Paris, in the Gare de Nord, in the back of a parked lorry in Spain but I don’t consider I have ever lived on the streets. Keep things accurate.
I have to agree that teaching is a difficult job especially teaching teenagers. I have the basic education to do it ( 2 degrees, one of which is in experimental psychology) but I am sure I would not make a good teacher. I could teach adults but I don’t suffer fools gladly and teaching kids invariably involves having the skill to deal with fools. I don’t possess that skill. I am not sure that I could learn it successfully or even desire to. I do have respect for teachers because I believe they carry out a difficult and important job.
OK Bede – different interpretation. I didn’t mean living homeless! I meant living in the hovels, bedsits, squats and van – though one night in a telephone box was not too comfortable.
Cheers Bede. Most jobs have elements that are hard. Teaching is a non-stop pressure with long hours and requires a lot of skills and qualities. I think it is one of the most important roles – but then I would wouldn’t I?
Oh dear. Caught red-handed bigging himself up by bullshitting/lying in order to bolster his post!
How often do you employ this tactic?
Whatever, it’s pretty uncool and makes for belief of much else from you rather difficult.
Perhaps a thorough psychological study would help to ascertain such profound narcissistic tendencies.
Andrew – desist – you are only making yourself look rather unpleasant. What sparked all this vitriol? Is it a personality problem?
Will I desist? You cheeky bugger!
Why do you come across as the most up-himself bloody bore who proceeds to exaggerate himself with untruthful statements about himself in service to himself? Yet points accusatory fingers at others and makes inflammatory statements such as “you talk crap”!
I’d love to see that psychometric test result of yours that got you blocked from partaking in that educational seminar.
There were two – on one I was an extreme enthusiast. The other was a test on team dynamics in which I was an extreme Shaper with strong secondary Plant characteristics. Nothing spectacular.
I wasn’t talking about your school.
I was referring to your nonsense here. Why are you quite so defensive then? I’ve got nothing to do with what anybody else says. You’re paranoid.
You’re lacking in confidence for feeling that way in the first place.
If there was ever a medal ceremony for whining and pointing fingers, you’d get platinum.
Ha – always good to get platinum!
I think you need to be more specific. I’m not sure which bit of my nonsense you’re referring to.
Perhaps my paranoia and defensiveness is a response to the constant aggressive attacks?
What are you not sure of now?
I’ll repeat it as you seem to want to bury this to save further embarrassment. You made claim that I work my posts in tandem with Anna to negate your posts.
I do not as there is evidently a world of difference between each of our individual posts.
It’s in your writing above – in your words!
You seem to regard any other view contrary to yours as an act of aggression.
Everybody’s out of step except our Jack.
Not what was meant at all. The two of you might not collude but you bolster each other – that is what I am saying. No need to make a big deal out of it Andrew. I don’t know why you’re getting so heated about it.
No I certainly do not regard different views as aggression. I only regard personal comments and angry tones as aggression. I’m completely cool with differing views. I relate to many people with totally different views to those of myself – no problem at all.
I like a constructive debate rather than emotional tirades and personal abuse – that’s all.
You really gotta be mental if you think I’m bolstered by anybody. You don’t half talk a load of nonsense.
Therefore, I was right. You do lack confidence and you must be meek to feel so weak to ever reach such a convenient conclusion.
I can read you like a book.
Well believe what you like about my meekness. Who cares. There’s many who would disagree. Perhaps I’ll inherit something?
No, there is not ‘many’ – there’s you and your alter ego.
That’s it, just the two of you.
And both of you eventually realise their folly and veer off-topic… again.
I can read them both like a book.
Must be complex then – what’s the ending?
Talking of endings – considering all your bluster against my comments – what happened with you finding out more about petrol prices?
Or do you just want to forget that you said what you said?
Well Andrew I was hoping there was going to be an end to all your bragging, boasting and lording. Obviously something has got you very riled up. It does not sit with the pleasant character we met in Scotland and does you no credit. Your pedantic obsession with detail and put-downs is tantamount to trolling.
Why not a more constructive intercourse?
The diesel prices here have risen to £1.13 a litre. They have shown no sign of subsiding.
Well Opher, since it was you who was making such a song and dance about it in the first place and here you are running a diesel chugger!
And yet you talk about the environment?
I fully support the call to get these damned filthy things off the roads asap.
Funny you should say that. We’ve been thinking the same. One moment diesel was supposed to be more environmentally friendly and the next it is a major killer. I think there is probably a difference between use in inner cities – where the micro-particulate and nitrous fumes build up – and use outside of cities where those pollutants are dispersed. However, our Picasso is proving a nightmare and we currently are having major engine problems and it’s been in the garage all week. So we are going to move it on and go for a petrol car – probably a Skoda. Presently we are marooned.
Not only did they promote diesel cars, as soon as they caught on they hiked the fuel price up.
If you want a car that doesn’t break down, have a look at Toyota. Over 5 years mine cost me no more than the occasional tyre change.